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#Post#: 36020--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: Quinten Poulsen
Date: January 17, 2020, 1:22 pm
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--- Quote from: Fearless Fred link ---
>
> I don't believe there's a Celery Cap in the Championship, as
it's a mix of Professional, Semi-professional & Amateur clubs.
>
--- End Quote ---
Apparently there is if you win promotion, in that season.
#Post#: 36021--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: Fearless Fred
Date: January 17, 2020, 1:37 pm
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And what a surprise, Healey thinks that Sarries are being hard
done by[emoji19]...
[quote=Healey in the Torygraph]Relegating Saracens is too harsh
– Premiership Rugby is also to blame for the salary cap scandal
AUSTIN HEALEY
Follow Austin Healey17 JANUARY 2020 • 7:15PM
Save
Rugby Union - European Champions Cup Final - Leinster Rugby v
Saracens - St James' Park, Newcastle, Britain - May 11, 2019
Saracens players celebrate winning the final with the trophy
after the match
Saracens are potentially facing relegation from the Premiership
CREDIT: ACTION IMAGES VIA REUTERS
Premiership Rugby only has itself to blame for sitting on its
hands while the biggest scandal in English rugby has blown up in
their faces.
In 2015, it was widely rumoured that Saracens were caught in
breach of the salary cap. Had Premiership Rugby thrown the book
at them then I am sure it could have nipped it in the bud.
Instead, the clubs decided to take another option and
Premiership Rugby swept it all under the carpet.
Clearly the primary fault lies with Saracens. They are the ones
who have consistently breached the salary cap. But having got
away with it once, they did it again year after year until a
judge got hold of their books. If everything had come out in the
open five years ago, there is less chance they would have pushed
the boundaries again.
I am sure there are other clubs desperately trying to get their
affairs in order because the last thing you want to do is accuse
another team of being a thief when you have your hand in the
cookie jar. But if you hide behind this lack of transparency and
clarity then don’t be surprised if people get up to mischief in
the shadows.
It is not like this whole affair has been this massive secret.
The whispers have been so loud they have been deafening.
Everyone knew something was wrong, but somehow it took three
years for anything to be doing about it. During that time
Saracens basically won every trophy in sight so you can
understand why other clubs are so angry. They were warned once
to get their house in order, seemingly did nothing and cleaned
up the silverware as a result. Any trust that Saracens might
have once had with other clubs was gone.
Even now their actual crimes are shrouded in mystery. The
judgement produced by Lord Dyson is guarded like a relic in
Indiana Jones inside Premiership Rugby’s offices. I have yet to
hear a single good reason why it has not been published for
everyone to read. All it has done is ensure that anger has built
and built.
Once it became apparent that Saracens were going to be over the
salary cap again this season then they were in a real bind. If
player A is being paid legitimately by PAYE and player B is
receiving a co-investment how do you cut wages across the board?
If you entirely scrap those co-investments then some of their
leading lights are going to be left severely out of pocket. It
is fairer that they take the financial hit or the fringe
players? Part of me thinks Edward Griffiths, who is a very savvy
man, will find a last-minute solution. He will make some
fundamental changes to their wage structure.
I know Saracens are a tight club but it is going to be tough for
them to get through this. It is easy to be friends and boast
about culture when you are winning all the time. If you are Owen
Farrell or Maro Itoje who will be desperate to play for the
Lions next year, are you going to really spend a year in the
Championship? I can’t see Warren Gatland coming to see the
Vunipola brothers smashing Hartpury College to pieces.
Effectively they would be on a season sabbatical. I guess we
will see how tight-knit they actually are.
All this being said I do think relegation is perhaps too
draconian a punishment. Clearly the other clubs are furious and
want their pound of flesh. Could you devise a one-off mechanism
where each club takes a pick of Saracens’ players like in the
draft? So the Newcastle Falcons could get Farrell and Irish get
Itoje? Then say their salary does not count towards the cap for
the next two years.
That would give clubs the justice they seek, reintroduce a
degree of equilibrium and give Saracens a fighting chance of
staying up this season.
Whatever comes next, Premiership Rugby have to act with total
transparency. It is not just Saracens who have broken trust but
Premiership Rugby with all the club supporters. Whatever
decision you come to get everything out in the open so we can
all move forward. Otherwise it will continue to fester.
[/quote]
#Post#: 36023--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: January 17, 2020, 1:43 pm
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Hey Austin I know you don't like to think too much but one of
the big reasons why there was so much secrecy originally is
because Saracens threatened a huge and expensive court battle if
their cheating was made public
#Post#: 36025--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: harlequins
Date: January 17, 2020, 2:10 pm
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How can Austin blame anyone but Saracens? He seems to be saying
- I did not get caught speeding a few times so when I did get
caught it was not fair as I was not caught before. Saracens
management knew they were over the cap, the players must also
have known - how else do you have a team with all those
internationals? They deserve to go down. They should have all
titles stripped. They should not come back until they can 100%
prove they are under the cap and have a total open book policy
to stop going over again. If they do go over again then they
should be banned from right. As for Wray, he has still not said
he has actually done anything wrong. He knew what he was doing,
he knew it was wrong.
#Post#: 36026--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: T-Bone
Date: January 17, 2020, 2:42 pm
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The more you read about this the more you realise how lightly
they got off originally. Two 35 point deductions running
concurrently? What utter rubbish.
Their trophies will be tainted in the eyes of most supporters
but the records won't bee struck off, so in years to come the
records will still show them dominating English rugby. I know
the regulations didn't allow it, which is a shame.
If they get relegated, they'll probably come straight back up,
so it just means the other championship teams are fighting for
second place.
One relegation and some bad press seems to me like not that bad
a trade in for whoever many premiership and european titles
Not at all surprised to see Greenwood side with them. A great
player, once a good pundit but has for a long time been pretty
awful. Very smug, calls anyone and everyone a rock star or
superstar, one of those who thinks that Wray and Sarries have
done so much good for English rugby that all should be forgiven.
I feel sorry for the longtime Sarries fans who've accepted that
the club cheated. From the statements in the press from the
players, I don't feel that sorry for the.
Wigglesworth on BB pod see,ed to suggest that they could have
tried to use the adversity to drive them on, as this they were
hard done by, "us vs the world" sort of thing. Griffiths seems
to be the only on to acknowledge any wrong doing.
#Post#: 36028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: InsertQuinsPunHere
Date: January 17, 2020, 2:53 pm
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--- Quote from: Quinten Poulsen link ---
>
> Whatever was reported on here at the time (I can't remember
the exact words) I interpreted as Gustard saying tongue-in-cheek
as I didn't think he would be stupid enough to say that he was
part of some deliberate systematic cheating to a room full of
mostly strangers. Maybe I've got him wrong though, and maybe
I've got the role of a defence coach wrong as well.
>
--- End Quote ---
Gotcha. The way I remember interpreting his comments was along
the lines of him hinting he knew what had and was going on, but
was noncommittal enough to not be an admission of guilt. Perhaps
he didn't know anything officially, but news spreads in
companies via unofficial channels too. I highly doubt he had any
say in any of it given his position there.
#Post#: 36029--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: January 17, 2020, 3:01 pm
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I don’t suppose there is any chance that the Premiership will be
ringfenced while they are in the Championship is there. That
would be about the most satisfying thing ever.
#Post#: 36030--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: harlequins
Date: January 17, 2020, 3:10 pm
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Good idea. Ring fence with the exception that you can get
promoted if you are not a salary cheat where the chief cheat
never apologised.
#Post#: 36033--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: TeddingtonQuin
Date: January 17, 2020, 4:42 pm
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--- Quote from: Quinten Poulsen link ---
>
> That was the tongue-in-cheek comment reported in here that
some people took to be gospel, yes?
>
--- End Quote ---
Tongue in cheek certainly. Based on truth, undoubtedly. I might
have been one that reported it, having witnessed it alongside
the body language
#Post#: 36034--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens facing automatic relegation....
DIR By: TeddingtonQuin
Date: January 17, 2020, 4:47 pm
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--- Quote from: Bucksquin link ---
>
> Yes, to a point, but I'm sure they were all reassured that it
was all above board (otherwise more would have leaked out,
surely, the more people knew) AND, if you are (say) Farrell,
then since they've been cheating for 5 years or more, he will
have benefitted to the tune of £3.5 million-plus before it all
came tumbling down. A reasonable risk to run, wouldn't you say?
>
--- End Quote ---
Oh there's little doubt they were lied to, everyone else was
too! But you have to be seriously ostrich like not to see that
something was seriously awry. I'd say 5 years is a big
understatement, this is the 4th season officially but there was
the furore in 2015 when PR bottled it and it was pretty evident
to anyone that thought about it for more than a nanosecond that
they had been cheating for a while. So yes, young Faz and others
will have done quite well out of it. Others perhaps not so much
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