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#Post#: 27925--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: September 3, 2019, 11:14 am
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I really hope they broke the cap by more than 1m. It stinks and
if they want to create loopholes all the time with all the other
clubs (mostly) playing by the rules then they should be expelled
to France to play in that league. If they will have them.
#Post#: 27926--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: harlequins
Date: September 3, 2019, 1:47 pm
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Anyone want to bet that Saracens will get off with it all ? The
powers that be won’t do anything. Saracens will end up with a
global international team, keep winning the league and nothing
will be done. The only solution at that point is for all other
clubs to either not play them or put out a second team for the
experience for perhaps a half. Let them win, it’s getting
pointless.
#Post#: 27932--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Fursty
Date: September 4, 2019, 2:29 am
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--- Quote from: Grins link ---
>
> With a property company set up in the way you describe then I
agree no immediate realisable day 1 gain. However why is Wray
giving the shares to a player? He has, in essence given the
player an option on the shareholding of the company - there are
models to value those....
>
--- End Quote ---
There's also ways of fair valuing the loans provided to the
companies - I'm willing to bet that any loans are at well below
the market rate for similar companies with similar performance
histories.
#Post#: 27939--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Donuts
Date: September 4, 2019, 3:06 am
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"With a property company set up in the way you describe then I
agree no immediate realisable day 1 gain. However why is Wray
giving the shares to a player? He has, in essence given the
player an option on the shareholding of the company - there are
models to value those...."
I suspect that this is done at the outset or early on so that
they have no significant value (as the property value and loan
are equal)and therefore are not a benefit in kind
#Post#: 27940--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Bucksquin
Date: September 4, 2019, 3:07 am
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I don't know exactly how the regulations are worded (does anyone
know what phrase is used?) but I would imagine it refers to
(something like) the aggregate value of any salary, bonus, or
other pecuniary advantage conveyed to the player, his family or
other connected persons either by the club or by any persons
connected to the club (which obviously would include Wray and
his business interests), whether or not directly related to the
player's playing contract. Pecuniary advantage can, as others
have said, easily be calculated, and converted to a 'market
value' both now and at a future point.
Perhaps the challenge here (if the lawyers have been clever)
will be to determine whether the arrangements have avoided
having any present-day value e.g. perhaps the deal is: Wray
charges no interest or the least possible interest now; the loan
is repayable immediately with accrued interest, at any point
during the playing career if the player leaves the club, other
than by mutual agreement (i.e. retires from all playing, whether
voluntarily or due to injury); thereafter, once the player is no
longer on the books, Wray waives repayment and accrued interest.
Hence the value of the investment is zero now but a lot once he
is no longer playing.
#Post#: 27941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Bucksquin
Date: September 4, 2019, 3:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bucksquin link ---
>
> I don't know exactly how the regulations are worded (does
anyone know what phrase is used?) but I would imagine it refers
to (something like) the aggregate value of any salary, bonus, or
other pecuniary advantage conveyed to the player, his family or
other connected persons either by the club or by any persons
connected to the club (which obviously would include Wray and
his business interests), whether or not directly related to the
player's playing contract. Pecuniary advantage can, as others
have said, easily be calculated, and converted to a 'market
value' both now and at a future point.
>
> Perhaps the challenge here (if the lawyers have been clever)
will be to determine whether the arrangements have avoided
having any present-day value e.g. perhaps the deal is: Wray
charges no interest or the least possible interest now; the loan
is repayable immediately with accrued interest, at any point
during the playing career if the player leaves the club, other
than by mutual agreement (i.e. retires from all playing, whether
voluntarily or due to injury); thereafter, once the player is no
longer on the books, Wray waives repayment and accrued interest.
Hence the value of the investment is zero now but a lot once he
is no longer playing.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
And if I'm right (or about right) then, if the property in the
investment is worth, say, £1 million, and the player is on the
books for four years, that is effectively giving the player a £1
million (£250,000 a year) benefit, but, one that has no value at
all until after he has retired and is no longer a player!
#Post#: 27945--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Yareet
Date: September 4, 2019, 6:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bucksquin link ---
>
> I don't know exactly how the regulations are worded (does
anyone know what phrase is used?) but I would imagine it refers
to (something like) the aggregate value of any salary, bonus, or
other pecuniary advantage conveyed to the player, his family or
other connected persons either by the club or by any persons
connected to the club (which obviously would include Wray and
his business interests), whether or not directly related to the
player's playing contract. Pecuniary advantage can, as others
have said, easily be calculated, and converted to a 'market
value' both now and at a future point.
>
> Perhaps the challenge here (if the lawyers have been clever)
will be to determine whether the arrangements have avoided
having any present-day value e.g. perhaps the deal is: Wray
charges no interest or the least possible interest now; the loan
is repayable immediately with accrued interest, at any point
during the playing career if the player leaves the club, other
than by mutual agreement (i.e. retires from all playing, whether
voluntarily or due to injury); thereafter, once the player is no
longer on the books, Wray waives repayment and accrued interest.
Hence the value of the investment is zero now but a lot once he
is no longer playing.
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Here you go
HTML https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf
Also shows how ex-players are covered to close the loophole
allegedly used by Sarries when they deferred payment until
players had retired.
#Post#: 27951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Le Tiss
Date: September 4, 2019, 7:07 am
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surely that is like a company paying large undeclared pension
top ups? a pension isn't worth anything to you until you retire
either - but a company pension sure is a benefit.
#Post#: 27957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Quinky
Date: September 4, 2019, 2:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Donuts link ---
>
> I think it will be difficult to confirm the value of the
benefit to the players.
> As I see it basically a company is formed and it acquires a
property asset with a substantial loan from Nigel Wray.
> At that point the company has no value as its assets (the
property) equal the liabilities (the loan still due to Nigel
Wray).
> the only time that the player will benefit is if the asset
grows in value which as it is property over time it is likely to
or Nigel Wray decides he doesn't need his money back (which I
suspect is what the plan is) and he agrees to write the loan
off.
> But if he doesn't do this until the player has long since
retired then up until then the only increase in value is the
gain in the property value plus any income form rental profits
earned in the period. Normally properties in Investment
companies should revalue their properties every three years but
this isn't always done and in any case a friendly valuer can
easily make this prudent.
>
> then there is the argument that all Nigel Wray is doing is
acting as a mortgage provider (until/or if he writes the loan
off).
>
> If he doesn't then all he is doing is as he claims helping
take a step up the business ladder for their life beyond rugby
>
> would welcome other thoughts on this
>
--- End Quote ---
If the player receives a loan then it will need to be interest
bearing at current market rates. If not, then there is a
tangible and quantifiable benefit.
#Post#: 27967--------------------------------------------------
Re: Saracens salary cap storm transferred to independent panel
DIR By: Bucksquin
Date: September 5, 2019, 1:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Yareet link ---
>
> Here you go
HTML https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf
>
> Also shows how ex-players are covered to close the loophole
allegedly used by Sarries when they deferred payment until
players had retired.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you. That looks very comprehensive indeed.
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