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#Post#: 21664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: Quinky
Date: April 12, 2019, 7:32 am
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--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
>
> Good debate - appreciate the way you're expressing yourself
too and there is probably more convergence between our arguments
than there might at first appear to be.
>
> I'm all for helping those more vulnerable to become more
resilient - think that's absolutely crucial too, you're right. I
just really feel there's an opportunity to do something quite
simple but effective within the constitutional concept of
freedom of speech though. I really do feel there has to be some
kind of responsibility taken by the person expressing their view
- I just wish I had a definitive answer to your final question:
"where is the line to be drawn?"
>
> The truth is I'd need to go away and think properly on that
before I came up with any kind of draft policy, but it just
feels to me that the current situation whereby someone can claim
freedom of speech is justification for putting other people in
harm's way is skewed in the wrong direction. So too is the
notion of stopping certain political groups speaking at
universities or censorship for censorship's sake. Feels like
there's a weird pinch at both ends of this argument and if we
could iron out those two inadequacies then we'd have more of an
all-rounder of a policy and people would have a more concrete
understanding of what is and isn't acceptable when expressing
yourself outwardly - especially on social media/in public.
>
--- End Quote ---
TBQ, I think you're right - we are probably more aligned on this
than it might at first have seemed.
A while back I heard someone say "The problem today is that
everyone knows their rights, but nobody wants to know their
responsibilities".
I agree that some use the "freedom of speech" excuse to be
offensive and malicious, and many get away with a lot worse than
what Folau has said in this instance. I wouldn't want to draw a
line as to what is acceptable - is as variable as you can get,
and you'll never find a line that everyone is happy with. For
now I'll just adopt the stance that Folau is motivated by
religion, and holds views that really aren't compatible with my
own. It's clearly something that he feels the need to broadcast
and he has to pay the consequences for that. As Blucher says in
a later post, he's fallen foul of his employer's policies so I
guess he's reaped his own rewards.
But again, thanks for an interesting, informed, and civil
discussion.
#Post#: 21665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: Quinky
Date: April 12, 2019, 7:32 am
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--- Quote from: Brown Bottle link ---
>
> Law has nothing to do with this but your astonishment at
anything is quite unremarkable.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thank you for another invaluable contribution.
#Post#: 21666--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: MightyQ2
Date: April 12, 2019, 7:33 am
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Have any of you seen the recent post by Billy Vunipola?
(instagram)
Really interested to hear your thoughts.
#Post#: 21667--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: poorfour
Date: April 12, 2019, 7:33 am
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--- Quote from: DOK link ---
>
> A nice piece here on the effect this sort of thing can have on
young LGBT+ people
HTML https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/ignorant-and-damaging-men-like-folau-kept-me-in-the-closet/news-story/9d0cbca1cbf5a45dd352d00efa0eac90?nk=3b822de0fec237b616e54edde6806091-1555055926
>
--- End Quote ---
Good article. Sadly, if you scroll down there's a second article
where Billy Vunipola has responded to Folau with some nonsense
about "man was made for woman". It's nowhere near as bad, but
it's just as ignorant. Muppet.
#Post#: 21671--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: April 12, 2019, 7:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quinky link ---
>
> Thank you for another invaluable contribution.
>
--- End Quote ---
No problem.
#Post#: 21675--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: April 12, 2019, 8:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MightyQ2 link ---
>
> Have any of you seen the recent post by Billy Vunipola?
(instagram)
> Really interested to hear your thoughts.
>
--- End Quote ---
Billy's monologue is less directly offensive and he's used some
clever devices like using a rhetorical question to tone down the
message but I guess I just wish he hadn't broadcast it.
Ultimately it's up to him whether or not he feels the need to
come out in support of Folau and he obviously felt compelled to
but setting aside my own feelings/opinions for a second, it
would seem more sensible for these guys to back each other in
private rather than be philosophising in front of the world's
media. That's what I would be advising them to do if I was their
agent. No one's demanding that these guys become spokesmen for
anything other than rugby - but again that's their prerogative.
If you want my personal opinion, I just feel sorry for Billy and
Folau that they're so blinkered by their religion. As an atheist
I come from a fairly extreme starting point - i.e. I'd hate to
be what I perceive to be brainwashed into being so
closed-minded. So given that their comments don't offend me
personally, what else can I do but pity them? Feels to me like
they're closing off a lot of opportunities to bond with others
on a human level because they are somewhat repulsed by or afraid
of people who live their lives differently. I'm sure they pity
me - I'm that sinner they're talking about after all and I'm not
going to be repenting any time soon. Keep Hell warm for me, I'm
on my way...
The thing I can't ever square is the cop-out of repentance. Both
Folau and Billy admit to having committed many of the sins on
the list. The difference for them is just that quick check-in
with their dude upstairs to say sorry. The whole thing doesn't
really inspire me to believe that you've really bought into your
religion if you're free to sin as much as you want - just as
long as you apologise to the big man afterwards.
I have religious friends but it didn't take me long to realise
that they all have something in common: they've taken a religion
that is millennia old and realised that it makes more sense to
transpose and adapt those teachings/moral codes into the world
we actually live in now. If everyone did that I suspect we
wouldn't have these issues. It baffles me that these people
can't or don't want to, but that's their life - I'll just have
fun over here swinging both ways and turning up at The Stoop
just after 1pm tomorrow to get as many rounds in before the game
as is humanly possible.
#Post#: 21676--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: Quinky
Date: April 12, 2019, 8:27 am
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It's said that religion is the cause of many of the world's
problems, past and present.
#Post#: 21689--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: Blucherquin
Date: April 12, 2019, 9:11 am
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It sadly means that Billy Vunipola is another one who appears to
believe being gay is "against god".
Being afraid of death therefore creating a magical person in the
sky to help protect yourselves from the randomness and futility
of existence is one thing (see, that's my freedom of speech
right there - it's all genetics Billy, you're not a "thing"
you're just some genes that want to carry on and really don't
mind who or what you are or what you think or believe so chill
out).
Using that belief in order to tell people that they're putting
their **** into the wrong hole is quite another.
More specifically, as Tom posts - so Billy somehow has
constructed his religious world to believe that his sins can be
forgiven but liking **** isn't. It's all rather dull.
#Post#: 21692--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: April 12, 2019, 9:21 am
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Oh. My reading of Issy and Billy's posts was that I just had to
close my eyes and say sorry immediately after my next Grindr
hookup - is that not how it works? Damn.
#Post#: 21696--------------------------------------------------
Re: Joe Marler - Hero
DIR By: Blucherquin
Date: April 12, 2019, 9:29 am
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--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
>
> Oh. My reading of Issy and Billy's posts was that I just had
to close my eyes and say sorry immediately after my next Grindr
hookup - is that not how it works? Damn.
>
--- End Quote ---
As far as I can tell he can say sorry for being drunk but you
can't say sorry for a reach around.
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