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#Post#: 20339--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: Brown Bottle
Date: March 28, 2019, 5:50 am
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I'll give you Eliot Daly, although he's being played out of
position. It appears unlikely Sarries will play him at full
back.
However, as you say, the rest is subjective, and what quality is
the top of the Prem? Not as good the ERCC, Sarries apart. I
don't follow NZ rugby but all their players comes from just 5
clubs, arguably palying at a higher standard than the Prem,
which makes comparisons a lot easier.
#Post#: 20340--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: A222Quin
Date: March 28, 2019, 5:56 am
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I don't think Eddie's doing an amazing job as England coach but
it must be one of the worst jobs in international rugby. You
have a huge player pool, meaning that there are selection
arguments over almost every position. You have an attritional
league that means your players drop like flies on a regular
basis and most of your opposition sees you as their must win
game every year. Anything less than winning or 2nd in the 6N is
a failure.
I see where you're coming from TomBuckQuin on picking the form
players (Te'o I don't get at all and the Daly experiment is
pointless IMO) but the most successful sides have often picked
broadly the same players for every match that matters. Alex
Goode has looked bang average every time he has worn an England
shirt, Care very rarely performs well as a starter for England -
his performance against Japan was really poor. Who are you
picking instead of Youngs? I'd have to disagree with you on May
- he's been scoring all season in a rank Leicester side. It's
easy to see why he gets in though Thorley looks an excellent
prospect and will most likely get a look in during the
Barbarians and Summer games.
#Post#: 20341--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: March 28, 2019, 5:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I just don't accept the argument that less clubs to choose from
= easier pickings. We have the largest player pool in the world
by a long distance. The problem is we're not using it. Same old
clubs provide the players, regardless of how they're doing.
Quins bucked that trend and were largest provider of players for
quite a few years - and too many years. As we started to plunge
down the table it should have become plain that our players were
not up to scratch - but they continued to get picked when others
should have been considered. I'm not going to be blinkered about
this - it's not just "pick more Quins players now we're top 4"
(although that is an inevitable outcome from what I'm arguing
for). All I want to see is a change from picking the same old
players each time for England "because experience" to the NZ
model - without even looking I know that they have many more 30+
cap players than us because they reward players on form. Which
in return gives you a deeper pool of "experienced" players to
switch in and out - and yes, it takes time, but it's worth it
and once you've established that system then as one experienced
player tapers off towards the inevitable end of their
international career, you have a younger "experienced" player
ready to take up the mantle - and another one fighting it out
with him. And there's your conveyor belt. There's your
consistent top 2 world ranking. There's your World Cup.
#Post#: 20342--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: March 28, 2019, 6:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: A222Quin link ---
>
> I don't think Eddie's doing an amazing job as England coach
but it must be one of the worst jobs in international rugby. You
have a huge player pool, meaning that there are selection
arguments over almost every position. You have an attritional
league that means your players drop like flies on a regular
basis and most of your opposition sees you as their must win
game every year. Anything less than winning or 2nd in the 6N is
a failure.
>
> I see where you're coming from TomBuckQuin on picking the form
players (Te'o I don't get at all and the Daly experiment is
pointless IMO) but the most successful sides have often picked
broadly the same players for every match that matters. Alex
Goode has looked bang average every time he has worn an England
shirt, Care very rarely performs well as a starter for England -
his performance against Japan was really poor. Who are you
picking instead of Youngs? I'd have to disagree with you on May
- he's been scoring all season in a rank Leicester side. It's
easy to see why he gets in though Thorley looks an excellent
prospect and will most likely get a look in during the
Barbarians and Summer games.
>
--- End Quote ---
The point I'm making doesn't really apply now - it's too late
for Eddie. We're in WC year. He's committed.
But if he'd invested in a broader group of players in each
position from the off, we'd have a range of options now. Dan
Robson wouldn't still be sitting on the bench at 73 mins because
Eddie's too afraid that he's too "young" (lol, he's 27).
Leicester have been underperforming for longer than just this
season. Exeter have been consistently brilliant now for years.
The excuses just don't justify the selection imbalance.
Sweeping reform is needed after the WC. I thought we were
getting it with Eddie - but when the pressure came on he went
back to short term, closed thinking. Selection is a problem for
England. Sure, coaching is too, but if you pick enough good
players and give them opportunities eventually the amount of
energy and time spent "coaching" them is less and you see
consistent results. I really don't think it's difficult to
replicate what NZ do with the players we have available. Just
bladdy pick 'em!
#Post#: 20344--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: Quanks
Date: March 28, 2019, 6:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TomBuckQuin link ---
>
> All I want to see is a change from picking the same old
players each time for England "because experience" to the NZ
model - without even looking I know that they have many more 30+
cap players than us because they reward players on form.
--- End Quote ---
That's the problem without even looking - they don't. Taking
only players capped in the last 5 years (as assuming that only
these have a realistic chance of a recall, and I don't have the
time to go through older players to check if they have retired)
NZ have 28 players with 30+ caps and England have 28. The NZ
list includes players like Dan Carter and Victor Vito who they
can't select anymore as well, but I left them in as in theory
they could tear up their internal rules and pick them (for
balance I left Joe Marler in the England list).
NZ go through wingers quite quickly, but the bulk of their team
is pretty steady.
#Post#: 20345--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: March 28, 2019, 6:29 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Quanks link ---
>
> That's the problem without even looking - they don't. Taking
only players capped in the last 5 years (as assuming that only
these have a realistic chance of a recall, and I don't have the
time to go through older players to check if they have retired)
NZ have 28 players with 30+ caps and England have 28. The NZ
list includes players like Dan Carter and Victor Vito who they
can't select anymore as well, but I left them in as in theory
they could tear up their internal rules and pick them (for
balance I left Joe Marler in the England list).
>
> NZ go through wingers quite quickly, but the bulk of their
team is pretty steady.
>
--- End Quote ---
Serves me right for setting my threshold too low. Would be
interested to see how that scales up to 40+, 50+ and so on. I'm
confident my point will come out in the wash as you go up the
checkpoints. If it doesn't then bang goes that theory.
I still maintain that there is an innate selection problem in
the England setup. Maybe I just haven't pinpointed the nub of
it.
#Post#: 20346--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: JammyGit
Date: March 28, 2019, 6:35 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I'm not sure this whole not rewarding form thing is
accurate.
Eddie's picked a lot of players right from the start and many
have come through on form - Sinckler, Moon, Genge, Curry(x2),
Underhill, Simmonds, Wilson, Slade, Lozowski, etc.
Yes, he's made some odd choices - hello Brad Shields - but even
Te'o was genuinely excellent for England coming off the bench
during that initial streak of wins.
Rewarding form uber alles means lots of inexperienced players,
though.
#Post#: 20347--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: Boonie
Date: March 28, 2019, 6:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
This argument was made after the 2003 World Cup, when a lot of
players retired, and again after 2007. Immediately after a WC is
the time to get the youngsters in and start playing with
combinations. The first year of competition after a WC is less
important than the one just prior, and I would love to see a
genuinely experimental side emerge post WC that takes the best
of the Prem players and looks at the next WC cycle. We'd not
like to see England come bottom of the 6N immediately after a
WC, but if it meant we had a good pool to pick from and could
start to bed those players in, such that we had an excellent
squad available for the next WC, would that be so bad? You
cannot go all youngsters; you need some old heads in there, but
the balance should shift significantly to the younger players to
see if they have what it takes. If they don't, at least you find
out early enough.
As has been said above - bit late for this WC!
#Post#: 20348--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: A222Quin
Date: March 28, 2019, 7:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The idea of experimenting makes sense post WC, I agree. How far
do you take it though - are players that are 27/28 who generally
would have another WC left in them discarded with eyes on the
next WC?
#Post#: 20349--------------------------------------------------
Re: Leicester Tigers: Players could still represent England even
in Championship, says RFU boss Nige
DIR By: TomBuckQuin
Date: March 28, 2019, 7:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It's obviously not all about age but as a benchmark let's aim to
bring in a bunch of 20-24 year olds immediately post WC - those
are the guys who are going to hit their straps come 2023. Maybe
it seems young but I was astonished to realise recently that
Marchant is still only 22. This is what I mean - there are
"experienced" Prem players out there who are lighting up the
Prem and have been for years - and a whole batch of those have
at least 2 WCs in them after this one. Marchant is one, Thorley
another (okay, he's less experienced but is just bursting with
talent and confidence).
One area I do think Eddie has really helped us is in the back
row - we now have two young, genuinely world class 7s in Curry
and Underhill. Where's the next Robshaw? Maybe Jack Willis? Mark
Wilson has been great as a stop gap but won't be there in 2023
so he should make way. Dombrandt straight in to share game time
with big Billy.
You start to see where you can build strength in depth. Tuilagi
is back to the type of player we want to see at 12 and will make
it to 2023. Joe Coka, Ellis Genge, Sinck, Maro. Those are the
players in there already that you start to build around and
bring through guys in and around that age group so eventually
you find you have a whole team of leaders rather than a few who
have 40 more caps than everyone else.
I really don't see why it's such rocket science to say that
anyone approaching 30 should be dropped post-WC. But as above,
we have this every time a WC comes and goes and I guarantee Ben
Youngs will still be our 9 next 6N. Which just illustrates the
problem I have with the short term selection decisions that have
plagued England since 2003.
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