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       #Post#: 18180--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: DOK
       Date: March 4, 2019, 3:39 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The question for me is really "Who paid what for the houses
       involved?"
       Say it's a 50/50 split in shares between a player and Nigel
       Wray.
       Say the house is worth £1m, and each put in £500,000 to purchase
       said house.
       Dividends from the property company will be paid 50/50.
       Presumably should the property be sold, that too would be split
       50/50.
       I can't see any  problem with this.
       However, say Nigel Wray paid for the house and now the player
       gets dividends, loans from the company and a 50% share of the
       house selling price.
       Clearly, that's a different kettle of fish.
       #Post#: 18182--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: DOK
       Date: March 4, 2019, 3:59 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       SARACENS CLUB STATEMENT: CO-INVESTMENT PARTNERSHIPS BETWEEN THE
       SARACENS OWNER AND PLAYERS
  HTML https://www.saracens.com/news-article/club-statement-co-investment-partnerships-between-the-saracens-owner-and-players
       "We are encouraged that many of our senior players are exploring
       business opportunities away from rugby."
       It must simplify matters that every senior player is exploring
       the same business opportunities away from rugby. So no-one wants
       to be a cheese maker or run a pub or make artisan beer. They all
       want to be directors in companies that invest in property. What
       are the odds?
       And when you look at the "senior players" involved, I'm sure
       it's just a fluke that they would be the ones you might think
       the club would have a problem properly fitting under the salary
       cap.  I'm shocked Alex Goode (born 1988) has not opted for this
       company benefits scheme, he's 3 years older than Farrell, I
       think he's missing out on a retirement opportunity.
       #Post#: 18183--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: Mayor West
       Date: March 4, 2019, 4:20 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       You’ve asked the questions I was asking DOK. Is there any way
       you can tell who introduced what amounts of money to the
       companies or how the players came into the companies after their
       inception. Why do Wray and his associates have anything to do
       with these companies. I take it Duncan Saville isn’t involved
       with Danny Care Ltd, or any other Harlequin F.C. Director or
       associate.
       #Post#: 18186--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: Blucherquin
       Date: March 4, 2019, 4:41 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Sadly this quotes Andy Goode which means they’ve gone to the
       biggest rent a gob moron in world rugby.
       But it’s otherwise interesting....
  HTML https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6770759/Premiership-clubs-former-players-join-calls-Saracens-salary-cap-inquiry.html
       To quote a bit for the lazy:
       “Sportsmail understands that the PRL’s salary-cap manager,
       Andrew Rogers, has been making inquiries specific to Saracens in
       the last few months.
       It is thought that he has asked a number of rival clubs to
       disclose offers they have made to high-profile players,
       including Saracens squad members.
       Rogers is said to be trying to establish whether players have
       turned down higher offers than they receive at their current
       clubs, raising the prospect that they are being remunerated via
       other methods.
       It is possible the extent of Wray’s arrangements with players
       may extend much wider than initially thought.
       Sportsmail has also been told of another major England star who
       struck a property deal with Wray, and still owed the 70-year-old
       businessman hundreds of thousands of pounds when he moved
       clubs.“
       #Post#: 18193--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: DOK
       Date: March 4, 2019, 6:10 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I'm hoping the difference between the last time Saracens were
       under the microscope and this is that this time a national
       newspaper is shining a light on the dark side of the salary cap.
       When it was all just the PRL, it was all just easily swept under
       the carpet. Can they do that now though? If the Mail spent 4
       months putting this together, they've got a lot more than what
       you could get searching the Companies House register for a day!
       I suspect we'll see some more interesting revelations before
       this is through.
       #Post#: 18197--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: Bucksquin
       Date: March 5, 2019, 1:26 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: DOK link ---
       >
       > The question for me is really "Who paid what for the houses
       involved?"
       >
       > Say it's a 50/50 split in shares between a player and Nigel
       Wray.
       > Say the house is worth £1m, and each put in £500,000 to
       purchase said house.
       > Dividends from the property company will be paid 50/50.
       > Presumably should the property be sold, that too would be
       split 50/50.
       > I can't see any  problem with this.
       >
       > However, say Nigel Wray paid for the house and now the player
       gets dividends, loans from the company and a 50% share of the
       house selling price.
       > Clearly, that's a different kettle of fish.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Yes, but what if:
       Wray lent the player the money for his 50% at zero interest
       The player's shareholding automatically increases,
       incrementally, over the period of time he is at the club
       #Post#: 18198--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: Bucksquin
       Date: March 5, 2019, 1:28 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       And, do the salary cap regulations include or exclude monies and
       benefits paid directly or indirectly to players by a club's
       major shareholders or their direct or indirect business
       interests ('major' presumably being defined in some way)? This
       is clearly an important question.
       #Post#: 18200--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: Mayor West
       Date: March 5, 2019, 2:18 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I remember a loophole where you could borrow money from your
       company as a loan without paying tax on it but never actually
       pay anything back as there was no time limit. You could then
       invest that and so on and so on....
       #Post#: 18204--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: A222Quin
       Date: March 5, 2019, 2:58 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I bet the findings will be that they haven't done anything wrong
       by the letter of the law but they'll have kicked the arris out
       of the spirit of the cap etc.
       #Post#: 18205--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Have Saracens broken salary cap rules?
   DIR By: raedarius
       Date: March 5, 2019, 3:04 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Blucherquin link ---
       >
       > Sadly this quotes Andy Goode which means they’ve gone to the
       biggest rent a gob moron in world rugby.
       >
       > But it’s otherwise interesting....
       >
       >
  HTML https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-6770759/Premiership-clubs-former-players-join-calls-Saracens-salary-cap-inquiry.html
       >
       > To quote a bit for the lazy:
       >
       > “Sportsmail understands that the PRL’s salary-cap manager,
       Andrew Rogers, has been making inquiries specific to Saracens in
       the last few months.
       >
       > It is thought that he has asked a number of rival clubs to
       disclose offers they have made to high-profile players,
       including Saracens squad members.
       >
       > Rogers is said to be trying to establish whether players have
       turned down higher offers than they receive at their current
       clubs, raising the prospect that they are being remunerated via
       other methods.
       >
       > It is possible the extent of Wray’s arrangements with players
       may extend much wider than initially thought.
       >
       > Sportsmail has also been told of another major England star
       who struck a property deal with Wray, and still owed the
       70-year-old businessman hundreds of thousands of pounds when he
       moved clubs.“
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       At least they had the decency (odd word for the Mail, I know) to
       go with a bald Goode photo.
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