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#Post#: 16538--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Fursty
Date: February 7, 2019, 4:25 am
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One of the ways in which a club (I don't know which) used to get
round the salary cap is that they had a club pool of Range
Rovers, these were technically for anyone to use and therefore
didn't convey a benefit on any individual - however only certain
people had the keys to each of them.
I know a couple of people who have worked on the salary cap
audit and they've acknowledged that it's incredibly difficult to
value or even identify all the little extras that players
receive - for example squad trip to Dubai where there's no
training involved - should this be within the salary cap?
#Post#: 16539--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Boonie
Date: February 7, 2019, 4:46 am
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This goes back to the "level playing field" argument. Those
clubs with rich backers can afford to pay advisors who can
identify elements of remuneration that do not need to be
declared. The legal arguments in 2015 took a chainsaw (legal
advice) to a gentlemen's agreement, and tore it apart. the
original agreement never envisaged the lengths that club owners
would go to in order to attract and keep the best possible
talent. Headline salaries are one thing, but there are myriad
ways to attract players that are nothing to do with headline
salaries. Should these be included in the cap, or do we just
accept that this is now part and parcel of the game? That a club
that used to play to meagre crowds and had meagre expectations,
but that has changed with the cash injections. Are the over the
salary cap? How can you tell these days? That is really the nub
of the issue - it is not really possible to work it out now.
#Post#: 16542--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: deadlyfrom5yardsout
Date: February 7, 2019, 5:27 am
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I know a Forensic Accountant who would relish the challenge.
I get the feeling that things are going okay, don't rock the
boat is the current mantra.
#Post#: 16544--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Rocker
Date: February 7, 2019, 5:42 am
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Still think it is all a bit suspect. No smoke without fire and
all that....
#Post#: 16546--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Quinky
Date: February 7, 2019, 5:47 am
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--- Quote from: deadlyfrom5yardsout link ---
>
> If the player knows about something that is against the Laws
and doesn't speak up, then that makes him just as culpable.
>
--- End Quote ---
But how can they "know"? Unless they are party to a huge amount
of detail and privileged info.
#Post#: 16547--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Quinky
Date: February 7, 2019, 6:00 am
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--- Quote from: Fursty link ---
>
> One of the ways in which a club (I don't know which) used to
get round the salary cap is that they had a club pool of Range
Rovers, these were technically for anyone to use and therefore
didn't convey a benefit on any individual - however only certain
people had the keys to each of them.
>
> I know a couple of people who have worked on the salary cap
audit and they've acknowledged that it's incredibly difficult to
value or even identify all the little extras that players
receive - for example squad trip to Dubai where there's no
training involved - should this be within the salary cap?
>
--- End Quote ---
I would guess that the easiest way is to adopt the HMRC method.
"Pool cars" have to fit certain criteria; this would include
where they are usually kept overnight, what they are used for,
who drives them; mileage logs should be kept etc. HMRC might
question why a fleet of Range Rovers were needed as pool cars,
but then HMRC are also unlikely to back down against the threat
of legal challenges.
One benefit of the HMRC approach is that they put a value on
such benefits as company cars, so that would help to determine
whether the salary cap is actually being breached. The clubs
would also be aware of what the level of remuneration was, and
hence could hardly claim ignorance. Of course, there will always
be anomalies, but these could be reduced.
Trips to the Middle East - similarly, HMRC have ways to
determine whether these are necessary, or whether they are an
unpaid for benefit. With companies it tends to involve whether
any "work" was done on the trip - so, a jolly to Belgium (for
example) might need to include a few training sessions and some
PR work, so that it could be considered a business trip. Whereas
spending 48 hours drinking 10%ABV beers whilst falling out of
horse-drawn carriages might be a harder one to pass off as
business related.
#Post#: 16549--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Fursty
Date: February 7, 2019, 6:08 am
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Quinky totally take your point about the way HMRC treat things
and it could be used as a good benchmark, however the salary cap
submissions and CT submissions don’t need to reconcile.
On the trips to the ME as you’ve pointed out by having a couple
of notional training sessions (soft skills) thrown in its very
easy to have a jolly classed as tax deductible.
Out of interest how are image rights treated under the salary
cap?
#Post#: 16552--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Quinky
Date: February 7, 2019, 6:54 am
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--- Quote from: Fursty link ---
>
> Quinky totally take your point about the way HMRC treat things
and it could be used as a good benchmark, however the salary cap
submissions and CT submissions don’t need to reconcile.
>
> On the trips to the ME as you’ve pointed out by having a
couple of notional training sessions (soft skills) thrown in its
very easy to have a jolly classed as tax deductible.
>
> Out of interest how are image rights treated under the salary
cap?
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Indeed, Fursty. I'm no fan of much of HMRC's workings, but it
would seem to be a thoroughly thought out methodology and most
importantly, one that's hard to challenge but relatively clear.
I think image rights are dependent on whether they "belong" to
the club or the player. Obviously a player can control their
own, and I'd say that's something that agents and clubs may use
in negotiations. But I seem to recall that in the days when
professionalism was being brought in, there was the guideline
that if a player earned money from images or appearances whilst
wearing their kit, it counted as rugby related earnings; if not
(such as Personal Appearances, after-dinner speaking etc) then
it wasn't. Maybe that's still a consideration? Similarly, if the
club had a veto on any work that a player could take up, logic
suggests that it must somehow affect the salary cap if not being
included in it - otherwise the club could simply arrange for
remuneration through such a channel and thereby bypass the cap
restrictions.
These are just my thoughts of course. I have no knowledge of the
inner workings of club finances and if/how they can circumvent
the cap. I can think of plenty of ways in which at first sight
they could get around it, but of course there may be preventions
in place to safeguard against any of these. At the same time,
whilst many ways would be easy to detect, it must also be said
that a good accountant will be able to find ways which are
harder or seemingly impossible to detect. Some ways may even be
legitimate - such as the players being given better tax planning
advice, very generous pension schemes, future career
opportunities etc.
#Post#: 16572--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Mayor West
Date: February 7, 2019, 1:40 pm
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Does anybody know how Saracens did it? Something must have
leaked by now. Was it as simple as being arrogant enough to
think that it is not law but just an agreement so not legally
binding. The players wouldn’t have to know that they are
breaking the cap rules if they don’t all know each other’s
contracts. They would probably think they just had a great deal
for themselves.
#Post#: 16584--------------------------------------------------
Re: Elliot Daly
DIR By: Yareet
Date: February 8, 2019, 1:22 am
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I’ve posted this before but the cap rules are available at
HTML https://d2cx26qpfwuhvu.cloudfront.net/premier/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/03161651/Salary-Cap-Regulations-2018-19.pdf
Page 38 is where the definition of salary begins.
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