DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Classical Theism
HTML https://classicaltheism.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Philosophy
*****************************************************
#Post#: 124--------------------------------------------------
A list of arguments for atheism
By: Dominik Date: April 22, 2020, 7:17 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML https://exapologist.blogspot.com/2019/09/sixty-arguments-for-atheism.html?m=1
I will explore, adress and evaluate the arguments in this list,
though many in comjunct and not separate since 50+% of those, as
far as I can see are variations on the Problem of Evil and while
I think they offer defeaters for most theodicies if they were
taken on their own, I don't see how they affect classical theism
as such (in thr spirit of Brian Davies etc.).
Some arguments need to be adressed though and looked at in which
way they raise the probability of naturalism and whether they
favor it over theism.
I wpuld appreciate help and comments, especially since sometimes
I will add another link about criticisms of theistic arguments.
This is probably the fullest list of atheistic arguments out
there. Engagement should prove fruitful and enhance
philosophical knowledge.
#Post#: 125--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: ClassicalLiberal.Theist Date: April 22, 2020, 2:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Are you going to be posting your responses somewhere? If so,
where?
#Post#: 126--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: Dominik Date: April 22, 2020, 11:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I'll just do it here. Maybe it helps getting some people back
into the forum.
#Post#: 127--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: ClassicalLiberal.Theist Date: April 23, 2020, 9:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Okay. I'm looking foward to it.
#Post#: 128--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: jd3 Date: April 23, 2020, 2:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Looking forward to this. Depending on how much time you have to
really dive in, you might consider expressing the thoughts you
post here in another medium, such as a blog, podcast, youtube
video etc. where you could really flesh them out. But I'm happy
to hear your thoughts below and chime in. My initial thought in
scanning through them is that of the roughly 80 arguments listed
(including some added in the comments) roughly a third (or even,
as you suggest, half) are variations on the problem of evil and
have probably already been addressed by Davies, and the ones
based on physics can be dealt with by either A. a proper
understanding of AT metaphysics or B. a proper understanding of
what physics is (Nigel Cundy's book "What is Physics? A Defense
of Classical Theism" could be useful, but I haven't read it).
#Post#: 129--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: ClassicalLiberal.Theist Date: April 24, 2020, 8:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Nigel's book is good; however, he at times seems to get various
things about Aquinas' thought wrong. In addition, much of the
physics in the book is represented with mathematical equations,
but he does explain what they mean and demonstrates their
metaphysical implications. I would recommend it, but I don't
know if it will be necessary to challenge the ex-apologist. I
think it would be more useful to listen to his interview on the
classical theism podcast. He explains the physics that would
probably be of most importance in this case.
#Post#: 131--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: Dominik Date: April 25, 2020, 6:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It is important to some arguments, especially when alternative
metaphysics are concerned, which is almost always the case when
alternatives to theism are provided. That Aristotelianism
entails Theism is rarely doubted and if it fits the scientific
model best, as Cundy argues, then it is a strong case against
arguments which doubt said metaphysics.
#Post#: 132--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: guest2 Date: April 25, 2020, 8:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I must say I just can't get worked up about the problem of evil.
If God is the good itself, as classical theists maintain, what
can this objection mean? It is as if to say the good itself is
not good enough. The sceptic if granting that objective good
exists; otherwise, the so called problem of evil makes no sense:
if evil is subjective, then there is not even prima facie
grounds for this objection.
Besides, I don't think we need Davies for the privation
understanding of evil. With this understanding of evil and the
classical theist understanding of God, the problem of evil
becomes a squabble about just how much suffering seems
compatible with the existence of an all-powerful, good God,
which takes much of the wind out of the sails of the objection.
#Post#: 134--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: guest2 Date: April 26, 2020, 6:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Having looked a little more at these arguments, most are
terrible. I think more substantive would be a response to the
argument about divine simplicity and knowledge of contingent
beings.
By the way, what is meant by naturalism in the OP? Naturalism in
the sense of materialism simply cannot be true. I'm fairly
certain about the existence of God, but I am we even more so
about the fact materialism is false. If God doesn't exist, then
we still aren't purely material beings. The philosophical and
empirical arguments on that score are, to me, decisive. These
arguments on their own might not add to directly to those for
God's, but they get rid of any objections based upon the truth
of materialism.
#Post#: 135--------------------------------------------------
Re: A list of arguments for atheism
By: Dominik Date: April 28, 2020, 6:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Changing plans: I tried it with argument per argument, but it
doesn't work that way, it just a) takes too long and b) in
answering I'm making references and answers to other papers on
the list. Further more, as Jeremy observed, most arguments are
bad. For example, I will copy it here in due time, I have taken
on argument 20 “The argument from the philosophy of nature“,
assuming that given its name ot would be worthwhile, but it
turns out that he attacks the normal churchgoer on tge street,
ID, and dismisses the scholastics as “academic theism“, being
completely oblivious to the fact at how great their influence in
the catholic, eastern, anglican and as an example of the
protestants, Presbyterian tradition was. Fundamentalist bible
thumpers aren't really a counter example, especially since
sophisticated tradition are the interesting parts. Its like me
attacking Loftus and claiming Oppy has been defeated.
Anyway let's categoriue the arguments, which should make it
easier for all:
1. Evil and Divine Hiddenness
The first is self-explanatory. It can be turned on its head if
the atheist himself accepts objective good and evil (e.g.
Huemer, Wielenberg), other than that it is a question of the
intrinsic coherence of theism. Fun note: In its rejection I
think David Bentley Hart is even more radical than Brian Davies.
As to Hiddenness, although Schellenberg wants it to be
distinguished because, other than the PoE, it is only a problem
if God did exist, I still put them together for several reasons.
1) It could be defeated by the same theodicy as the PoE, 2)
given a rejection of the idea that God has a moral obligation
toward us, it vanishes, 3) I don't think that the differences
between the problems go beyond a different pastoral response.
In both cases there are good an bad papers here. For the former
we should read the work of Rowe and Smith or Trakakis. For the
latter Schellenberg himself. I refuse to read anything where the
author is Stephen Law or Maitzen. A bad version of the
hiddenness argument can be found as (I think) the last argument
from the (late) development of monotheistic beliefs in
evolutionary history. I think most of the hiddenness problems
can be evaded by adopting inclusivism or universalism, as the
real evil would only be if exclusivism were true. Molinist
theodicies (Craig) are implausible.
Jeremy, I know that you are familiar with the mystics
literature, do you think those insights are helpful? If so,
please share them.
I am currently reading Michael Reas book on Hiddenness. Others
have recommended the book of essays edited by Eleonore Stump
“Hidden Divinity“. PM me for the PDF.
2. Selfsufficiency of nature/plausibility on available data
Pretty selfexplanatory. To quote Vallicella:“ Suppose Naturalism
was completely unproblematic. You could answer in a satisfactory
manner every question as a naturalist, then there would be [in
spite of theistic arguments, religious, mystic and paranormal
experiences] very little reason to go beyond it.“
An example of this objection is Oppys “The best argument against
God“. Another one was a trivial point by Draper that a priori
naturalism were more probable than theism due to a broader
picture and fewer assumptions (theism here being much more
specific than just “supernaturalism“). Another argument by
Draper was that e.g. humanity is too unimpressive for theism,
which gives evidence for naturalism. We should make a list as to
what evidence would be evidence for either side.
3. Causal closure, mind-brain dependence, explanatory power in
comparison, morality (Wielenberg, Maitzen)
Subcategory of 2 deserving a separate response. The last are
arguments by Maitzen, that ordinary morality implies atheism and
Wielenberg who argues for the absurdity of life were
Christianity true.
4. Impossibility, incoherence of theism
E.g. incoherence in the attributes.
Even the best have have some brainfarts. Argument 10 by
Schellenberg that free will would be more expected on atheism
due to the failure of the free will theodicy. At some point we
have seriously entered sophistry.
Anyway, like I said, this will certainly take a while, but I
would be happy if you would help me, since I think we will all
benefit. And while I agree with Jeremy that most arguments are
utter garbage (Argument 20!, 46, 47), it is at least an
exhaustive list with some worthwhile resources. It certainly
shows that the case for atheism is way less diverse. I think
this will be fun.
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page