DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Classical Theism
HTML https://classicaltheism.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Philosophy
*****************************************************
#Post#: 68--------------------------------------------------
The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: ClassicalLiberal.Theist Date: February 8, 2020, 11:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The thomist is commited to the idea that God wills himself
necessarily, and wills other things in willing himself. This
essentially saves creation from existing necessarily in some
strict sense; however, insofar as there is no counterfactual
possibility in God, then things exist of necessity even if they
are not strictly entailed by his being. Although, this might not
be as bad as I may have first thought. Lets say that the big
bang was the beginning of creation. So, God caused the big bang
necessarily, but in a way that isn't entailed by his being.
Given that indeterminacy is true and that conscious agents have
freewill, then there is still an opprotunity for the "chips to
fall where they may", so to speak, and in some weaker sense
saving the usefulness or legitimacy of modality. We would then,
however, be commited to the idea that there is no possible world
in which the big bang is false, but also that there is a
possible world where I didn't make this post.
This seems to me to be a very odd conclusion, but nonetheless I
think it is probably correct. Thoughts?
p.s. Its pretty quiet around here, which sucks. I'll probably
post more in the future with the hope of stemming more
conversation.
#Post#: 69--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: Mackie Messer Date: February 9, 2020, 5:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]p.s. Its pretty quiet around here, which sucks. I'll
probably post more in the future with the hope of stemming more
conversation.[/quote]
Unfortunately, I think a lot of people lost steam after the
vBulletin forum got hacked.
#Post#: 70--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: Ouros Date: February 10, 2020, 3:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Unfortunately, I think a lot of people lost steam after
the vBulletin forum got hacked.[/quote]
That, and I think that a lot of older members are busy (I
remember that some had or are having changes in their lives.)
Re OP, I'm not sure I'm following your reasonning. It seems you
outright beg the question by thinking that's there no
counterfactual possibility in God. Even if there's not strictly
internal contingency to God, surely the object of His will and
knowing can change.
#Post#: 71--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: ClassicalLiberal.Theist Date: February 10, 2020, 9:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
If the object of Gods will can change, then there is internal
contingency in God (more precisely, Gods existence would be
derivative), for if God's will willed for something other than
God, then whatever God wills determines his will and therefore
isn't actus purus. In other words, Gods will would be in potency
towards whatever he wills. Nevertheless, counterfactual
possibility only exists in temporal settings. Unless you are
willing to reject that God is eternal, then God wills the world
necessarily even if it is only a weaker notion of necessity. I
suppose you could say that God exists tomporally but has existed
for an infinite amount of time, but then you're left with a
neo-theistic conception of God which is undesirable.
#Post#: 72--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: Mackie Messer Date: February 10, 2020, 1:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[Quote=Ouros]That, and I think that a lot of older members are
busy (I remember that some had or are having changes in their
lives.)[/Quote]
I'm almost certainly one of the people you're thinking of, but
actually I think that a lot of us were only holding on because
of inertia long before the forum was hacked or things came up in
our lives.
I think this forum has long suffered from a crisis of identity.
When we started it, Scott and I had in mind that it would be a
sort of apologetics outpost where people from Feser's blog could
come to ask questions without being harrassed by combox trolls.
But, except for Scott and later Greg, none of the people doing
the actual work of setting up or running the place (or paying
for it) were Thomist or Catholic, so it lost this raison d'etre
and became a sort of watery classical theism outpost. I also
think that a lot of us got sick of answering and replying to the
same people making the same arguments over and over and over
without sign of give or growth on any side. But, anyway, a lot
of us were more than happy to split once we were given a reason
(whether it was the hack or other things in our lives). After we
gave up on the apologetics outpost idea, I tried to make it into
a sort of philosophical sand box for people of various classical
theist positions—sort of like what Ed Feser thinks the
world should be like—to debate on, but I got overwhelmed
trying to handle all the advertising and technical
administration (and life) myself.** The other issue I ran into
(and I think that this is a problem with online outfits in
general) is that everybody wanted to run their own site
(everybody wants to "be the boss", so to speak), so unless the
subject is reeealllllly popular none of those sites reach the
critical mass of people needed to become thriving,
self-sustaining communities. I tried to bring some of these
smaller communities together (even offering the senior
administrator position to someone else at one point) to reach
that critical mass, but pride and avarice won out. I'm also just
a bad person to be acting as spokesperson for a classical theist
website—I lack the conviction in classical theism some of
you guys have. (If only I could have gotten some of you, with
your crusading fervor, to help out!) In any case, bottom line is
that a lot more was going in to keeping the forum even at the
point it was at than most people realized (I wasn't doing it for
thanks, so never said anything), and that now it needs new blood
and new energy to perform those tasks.
**The technical administrator quit for personal reasons like two
weeks before the hack.
#Post#: 73--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: Mackie Messer Date: February 10, 2020, 1:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
CLT: The problem at the root of this problem is the accidental
property objection:
HTML https://maverickphilosopher.typepad.com/maverick_philosopher/2017/04/divine-simplicity-is-god-identical-to-his-thoughts.html
If you want to go over some new ground (in your research, or
reading, I mean), you can try weaving your way around the
indeterminacy stuff by applying a theory of probability that
allows for necessitarianism to it, but this is another old
objection in new garb situation (which, I think, is no less an
objection for being old).
#Post#: 74--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: RomanJoe Date: February 10, 2020, 9:50 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I absolutely adored the forum when I made an account years back
on the original site. It helped cultivate in me a love for
metaphysics and ethics that I still find myself enamored with
during contemplative moments. So many questions I've had
answered by this community. I truly am sad that it has fizzled
out. I used to sift through the archives continuously, and would
always refresh the page to see what new debates or questions are
posted. Though I might not be active from time to time, I'll
always stop in. I still glance over it weekly.
#Post#: 75--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: Ouros Date: February 11, 2020, 6:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
That's just a part of modern forums life cycle. Social medias
drains people who could have used forums, here or not.
Nowadays, there's not enough people who are into it to keep the
website alive. Not sure if you could have done anything about
it, honnestly.
#Post#: 76--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: Mackie Messer Date: February 11, 2020, 11:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I proposed moving to Facebook wayyy before anybody else had a
similar outfit on Facebook, but others felt that it would stifle
conservative commentors and lower the level of conversation too
much (and, to be fair, Facebook posts do tend to be less
substantial than forum posts).
But there are successful forums for obscure, niche topics (e.g.
Thomas Ligotti's work). They just take a lot of work to get to
that critical mass of members.
To be honest, I also think that the fact that we're a philosophy
forum is part of the problem. Most people aren't actually that
interested in philosophy, and even a lot of those who are are
interested only derivatively (for defending their religion or
some belief system or something, which, I suppose, is admirable
in its own way). I've been involved with a few non-philosophical
projects since September (I was invited on to the board of a
language school just yesterday), and, I got to tell you, the
difference in enthusiasm and energy is night and day. (Perhaps,
for this reason, it would have been wise to try to root this
forum's philosophy in a single religion more. There are still
people who get worked up about religion. I think it was probably
a mistake to both narrow the target audience and fail to do so
in a way that channeled people's interest in something else,
like a religion.)
#Post#: 77--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Necessity of Creation, Revisited
By: Mackie Messer Date: February 11, 2020, 11:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It goes without saying, that if anybody wants to help out with
the administration of the forum we're happy to make you
administrators. I have too many other things on the go to take
an active role, but I'm happy to pass on the mantle.
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page