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#Post#: 33332--------------------------------------------------
Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: Eccentric Date: February 2, 2014, 2:10 pm
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This is a writeup I did on AS a while ago. With things as
volatile as they are over there, I decided to cut and paste it
(with minor modifications) into the McCulloch thread here. Was
originally on page 756 of the McCulloch thread on AS.
[B]Part-1[/B]
While switching bars on my 650 gear drive a while ago, I
discovered some issues with large frame McCulloch bar oiler
holes/slots and bar plates that I've never seen discussed. Mark
H, Al S, and the other McWizards probably knew it all already,
but I sure didn't. It all boils down to putting your inner bar
plate against your bar to make SURE the oil holes and passages
line up. There are some cases (with certain bar tail and bar
plate combinations) where things won't line up, and the chain
will get no oil.
McCulloch (and Oregon) used/produced two different styles of bar
plates for the large frame McCulloch saws (from the D-30
forward, as I understand it). At least three different bar tail
oiler hole/slot designs for these saws were manufactured for use
on these saws over the decades. Use certain early large frame
McCulloch bars on a saw equipped with the later style inner bar
plates (with two large symmetrical slots), and your chain gets
NO oil.
Use a late style bar that looks like an enlarged 10-series bar
mount, (no oiler holes, other than the elongated adjuster holes
that also feed oil to the rails) with certain early style
McCulloch and Oregon bar plates, and your chain also will get no
oil. First I'll cover the bar plates, then I'll cover the bar
tail oiler hole/slot placement differences and the problems that
arise when the wrong combination is used.
The late style bar plate looks like an enlarged 10-series bar
plate. Inner and outer plates are identical, with two large
slots equally spaced, close to the centerline. The early style
inner bar plates are not symmetrical. The early style plates
have an inner and an outer (that can't be switched). The lower
adjuster pin slot is large (and in the same location as the
lower slot on the late plates), while the upper (oil) slot is
thin, but farther from centerline and moved forward in
comparison to the lower slot.
[img width=700
height=394]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5679-1339038304343.jpg[/img]
Late style inner bar plate on the right. Early style McCulloch
inner bar plate on the left. Notice the narrower, higher placed
oiler slot on the early plate. You can also see that the early
plate oiler slot lines up with the outer hole on the bar tail of
this early style bar. The late style plate oiler slot lines up
with the inner, adjustment pin hole in this bar (and NOT the
oiler hole).
[img width=700
height=394]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5695-1339038302285.jpg[/img]
Here's the late style plate on the left, with the early style
Oregon plate on the right. The oiler slot size and placement
differences are easy to see here.
[img width=700
height=394]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-6737-1339038311068.jpg[/img]
This is an early McCulloch inner plate placed over a late style
plate. Notice that the adjuster slots line up, while the oiler
slots do not.
The oiler well cast into the bar mount pad on the large frame
McCulloch chainsaws didn't substantially change over the years.
It is large, and accomidates both the early and late style inner
bar plates. A fellow can run a saw witout an inner bar plate
and it'll oil all the various large frame Mac bar styles.
[img width=700
height=394]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5698-1339038298589.jpg[/img]
Here's the bar pad, showing the oiler well. This happens to be
a front tank Mac (a 550), but the pad/well design is basically
the same for the top tank Mac large frame saws as well.
[img width=700
height=394]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5829-1339038311591.jpg[/img]
Here's a pic of the early style McCulloch bar plate on this saw.
[img width=700
height=394]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5706-1339038300701.jpg[/img]
Here's an early style Oregon bar plate on the same saw. The
profile of the Oregon plate differs from the Mac plate, but the
oiler slot placement is roughly the same.
[img width=700
height=394]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5692-1339038307003.jpg[/img]
Here's the late style McCulloch bar plate on the saw. It's
basically an enlarged 10-series bar plate.
[img width=394
height=700]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5686-1339038303317.jpg[/img]
This is the back side of the clutch cover for this saw. You can
see that the area above the bar stud section is large and flat.
This allows the cover to seal off the oiler slot on the 'off
side' of the bars (and on the outer bar plates), no matter which
style they are. This clutch cover has the style of bar
tensioner that was used for most of the large frame Macs of the
1960's and 1970's. The earliest saws (such as the D-30, D-36,
and D-44) instead had a large tensioner screw in the bar pad
portion of the fuel or oil tank (depending on whether it was a
front tank or top tank saw). This large screw had a VERY large
head that fit into a 'thumbnail' slot cut into the bar (which
you'll see in a few of my bar pics). This tensioner style
difference has nothing to do with the oiler hole/slot changes in
bar plates or bar patterns.
Part 2 to follow in a minute or two....
#Post#: 33333--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: Eccentric Date: February 2, 2014, 2:12 pm
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Part-2
Now on to bar tail oiler hole/slot differences, and the problems
they can cause when used wit the wrong inner bar plate.
The early bar tail setup has two holes on each side. The more
centered hole only functions as a place for the tensioner peg to
fit into. The other, more outward hole feeds oil to the bar
rail. A late style bar plate BLOCKS this hole rather than feeds
it. The oiler slot on a late bar plate only feeds oil to the top
adjuster hole when used on an early style bar. This hole isn't
in use for anything (the adjuster peg is below the bar studs on
these saws), and also doesn't have an oil passage which leads to
the rail. This means the oil goes nowhere. The higher oil slot
on the early style bar plate allows oil to go from the well in
the bar pad to the upper hole in this style bar tail, feeding
the rails. I have Oregon and McCulloch bars with this two hole,
early bar plate ONLY pattern.
The later style bars have a pair of elongated combination oiler
and tensioner holes. When mounted on the saw, the bottom hole
accepts the tensioner peg, and the upper hole receives oil and
feeds it through a slot to the bar rail. If an early style
inner bar plate is used with this bar tail style, the oiler slot
on the bar plate feeds oil to NOTHING except the side of the bar
(as the slot is too high to feed the oblong adjuster/ oiler
hole). The chain will run dry.
[img width=600
height=337]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5688-1339038301258.jpg[/img]
A McCulloch branded early 'four hole' style bar on top. Late
"enlarged 10-series" 'two hole' style bar on the bottom.
[img width=600
height=337]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5704-1339038304878.jpg[/img]
An early McCulloch inner bar plate on the same early McCulloch
branded bar. You can see that the oiler slot lines up with the
oiler hole. You can also see the early 'thumbnail' cut in the
bar for the early bar tensioner screws. It's unneeded on most
of the large frame Macs (which instead have the adjuster in
their clutch covers).
[img width=600
height=337]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5675-1339038308539.jpg[/img]
Late style 'two hole' bar on top. Early style 'four hole' bar
on bottom. On both bars, the solid black lines show where the
early style bar plate oiler slot lines up. Also on both bars,
the 'hollow' black outlines show where the late style bar plate
oiler slot lines up. You can see that the early bar plate oil
slot feeds the early style bar oil hole fine, but is too high
for the late style bar oil hole. You can also see that the late
style bar plate oil slot feeds the late style bar adjuster/oiler
hole fine, but is too low for the early style bar oiler hole
(and only feeds oil to the 'blind' adjuster hole above the bar
stud slot).
One other large frame McCulloch bar tail oiler style has a
diagonal slot cut into it. This slot connects the inner hole of
the bar (which serves as the tensioner pin hole when it's
oriented below the bar studs) with the outer hole of the bar
(which is the oiler hole that feeds a passage that leads to the
bar rail). Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of this style
oiler slot, and couldn't find a bar in my shop which has it.
I've seen a few McCulloch labeled bars (and others) with this
slot. I have also seen other bars that were obviously modified
to a variation of this style by an end user sometime in the last
40 years. I didn't understand why............but now I do....
There's a few ways to use an early style 'four hole' bar on a
saw that's currently equipped with the late style bar plates.
1)Swap on an early inner bar plate (McCulloch part # 61995). You
can leave the late style outer plate on the saw. The McCulloch #
for the outer plate is 61996. This plate will NOT work as an
inner. It has the upper oiler slot as well, but that's not used
when mounted on a direct drive Mac (or a gear drive with the bar
mounted on the 'outer' possition such as my 650). That plate
was used as an inner on the large frame gear drives (1-80
series, 890, etc) when the bar was mounted in the 'inner'
possiton, since they feed oil from the right side of the bar
(instead of the left).
2)Cut/butcher your late style inner bar plate so that it has a
higher oiler slot that allows oil to get to the upper hole on
the two hole bars. That's spring steel, and hard to cut
accurately IMHO.
3)Slot the bar tail between the inner (adjuster) and outer (oil)
holes. Do this on the upper side, as it faces the saw. Do it for
both sides so the oiler will work when you flip the bar for even
wear. Looking at the tail of the bar with the bar upright and
pointing away from your face (like it's your nose), the correct
spots to cut are the upper left and lower right. The bar steel
is easy to cut accurately if you take your time.
[img width=600
height=337]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5710-1339038306455.jpg[/img]
[img width=600
height=337]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-6299-1339038310064.jpg[/img]
[img width=600
height=337]
HTML http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318/Eccentric_photo/McCulloch%20LF%20Bar%20Mounts%20and%20Bar%20Plates%20Screed/photobucket-5832-1339038312117.jpg[/img]
Here's the same 'four hole' style bar from the earlier pics.
I've slotted beween the adjuster and oiler holes on the two
faces where the oiler slot of the bar plate will sit. Used a
dremel tool with a reinforced cutting wheel. Took my time, and
carefully slotted it about 1/2 the thickness of the bar. This
gave a 'passage' (when the flat face of the bar plate is on it)
about the same size as the passage that runs from the oiler hole
to the rail. The bar can now be used with both early and late
style plates, as the last two pics show.
As for running a late style bar on a saw with early style
plates..............you can either swap the extrememly easy to
find later style plate on the saw, cut your somewhat rare early
style plate (not my choice), or maybe radius the outer edge of
the combo adjuster/oiler holes (on the top of the bar, as it
faces the bar pad.......for each hole) so that the early plate
slot will feed it. I think I'd just get an easy to find/cheap
late style bar plate to use with a later style bar however......
Why McCulloch switched these things around I haven't a clue. The
bar pad casting on the saws doesn't appear to have been changed
(other than the tensioner style change, and that doesn't affect
the oiler situation). My guess is to have their large frame
bars and bar plates be more like the 10-series setup. It does
work well, although I'm confused as to why they didn't make
those combination adjuster/oiler holes just a little bit larger
so they'd work with the early style bar plates. They must've
figured that the dealers would be able to sell the customer a
new inner bar plate to work with the new bar they were buying
for their 5-15 year old (at the time) saw.
Sorry for the long, wordy posts. Been chewing on this one for
months. Took some pics a few weeks ago when I had stuff on the
bench to shoot. I was also modifying that early 'four hole' bar
before sending it to Keith to use on his Super 250 (with late
style bar plates). I'll be modifying my remaining early style
bars in the same way when needed for use on my saws with late
style plates (and that's most of my LF Macs). My 650 came to me
with a 'four hole' Oregon bar..............and no inner bar
plate. The outer was a late style bar plate, and the guy I got
the saw from told me his father (the original owner) "traded in"
the 36" bar/chain for the 24" Oregon B/C that was on the saw
when I got it because "it was more handy" (ugh). His father
must've realized that the late style inner bar plate that his
saw came with was not letting his saw oil the
chain.....................and just ditched the inner plate
rather than buy an early style inner plate (or modify the bar).
The bar I swapped on (prompting this whole mess here) was a late
style NOS 31" hardnose. I had a spare late style inner plate
from a parts saw, and on it went.
#Post#: 33334--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: Eccentric Date: February 2, 2014, 2:13 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You can also use D096/D196/UXL Homelite XL-mount bars (for an
XL-12, SXL-925, etc) on these saws [B]if[/B] you use the
McCulloch "slim line" bar plate spacers (originally sold for
large frame Macs for use with 'slim line' McCulloch bars). You
also [B]must[/B] make sure that there is an oiler passage from
the adjuster hole to the chain groove. Some of these bars have
that provision...........and others require you to modify the
bar.
You also [B]must[/B] use the 'late' style bar plates that look
like enlarged 10-series McCulloch bar plates (as outlined
above). That's [B]in addition to[/B] the 'slim line' plates.
On the saw you start with the inner bar plate, then one 'slim
line' plate, then the bar, then the other 'slim line' plate, and
then the outer bar plate and the clutch cover. Those 'slim
line' plates keep the chain rivets from digging into things.
There is a possibility that the chain DL count will be different
than what it was for the Homelite XL-mount bar when it's on a
Homelite saw.
The 'slim line' McCulloch bars were intended by McCulloch to be
used on either the 10-series or large frame McCulloch saws.
When used on the large frame saws, they required the 'slim line'
bar spacer plates (along with the original late style bar
plates). When use on the 10-series Macs, no 'slim line' plates
were needed.................but stud spacers were. The stud
spacers were sold with the bars. Still see them on ebay
sometimes. The spacers for the 10-series saws are the 'coil
spring' type (needed to space up from the 5/16" 10-series studs
to the 3/8" slot in the bar). An 'S' type Homelite/Poulan stud
spacer can also be used.
Here's Bryce Stott's listing for the 'slim line' plates. Rob
(Jockeydeuce) also had some of these listed on ebay recently...
HTML http://www.ebay.com/itm/MCCULLOCH-BAR-SPACER-GUIDE-PLATES-125-105-STBX292-/360400117813?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e9856035
#Post#: 65429--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: DaveJ Date: November 24, 2015, 10:55 am
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Thanks for this posting. Very informative and well explained.
I've been having trouble with a new to me Pro Mac 800 and
finding a bar that will work.
#Post#: 65445--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: Al Smith Date: November 24, 2015, 5:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Good info on the large bars .
Large 10 series as the 800 is will take any 10 series bars .Some
Husqvarna mounts will work also . Fact if I remember it I'll try
a few and report back tomorrow .
On that it seems the 16 and 20 inch Mac bars are easy to find.24
and 28" not so easy .32 and 36" are not easy to find at all .I
can only imagine on the west coast were they were used with
longer bars they might be easier to find than in the heart land
in the hardwoods .Of all of the 10 series bars I have I only
have 2 32" and one 36" .I've never used the 36" .
#Post#: 65466--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: DaveJ Date: November 25, 2015, 7:16 am
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I went back to the old guy who gave me the pm 800 and dug around
in his garage. Found a 36" mac bar he apparently used with that
saw. 36TMX63SN. Seems to fit. I'd really like to use this saw,
but that's way more bar than I need. Sure would like to get
around 24". Did they originally offer those saws with 16" bars?
That seems way too small to me.
#Post#: 65483--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: Chainsawrepair Date: November 25, 2015, 9:44 am
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[member=1473]jon1212[/member] betting this memeber has a NOS
bar he could hook you up with.
jon1212 you really need to make a list and thread store here so
people can buy those bars from you. ;)
[member=929]Eccentric[/member] knows these things well too.
Aaron
#Post#: 65488--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: Eccentric Date: November 25, 2015, 12:44 pm
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[quote author=DaveJ link=topic=3017.msg65466#msg65466
date=1448457384]
I went back to the old guy who gave me the pm 800 and dug around
in his garage. Found a 36" mac bar he apparently used with that
saw. 36TMX63SN. Seems to fit. I'd really like to use this saw,
but that's way more bar than I need. Sure would like to get
around 24". Did they originally offer those saws with 16" bars?
That seems way too small to me.
[/quote]
TMX is Windsor's designation for the 10-series Mac mount
(Oregon's D276). Made for your PM800. A PM800 is a 10-series
saw and [B]not[/B] a Large Frame Mac (250, SP125, etc), despite
it being larger than a 10-10A or other smaller 10-series saw.
The Large Frame Macs that this thread covers are a completely
different series (with a completely different mount). To
confuse things, McCulloch did sell some 'slim line' bars that
were intended for use on both Large Frame Macs (with the right
bar plates) and 10-series Macs (with stud spacers).
The 82cc 10-series Macs
(SP80/SP81/PM850/PM805/PM800/PM8200/DE80) were typically sold
with 20-36" bars. Doubt many were sold with 16" bars. Jon1212
had several TMX and D276 bars in various lengths. Probably
still has some. There are NOS and used bars on eBay too,
including several 28" bars.
You can also use an Oregon D176 mount bar on your PM800. The
D176 is Oregon's current 'multi fit' mount, intended to work on
most larger Echos, XL-series Homelites with 5/16" studs, most
older medium/large Poulans, and 10-series Macs. IIRC, they
still produce them in lengths up to 24". They have been made in
several lengths in the past.
If you adapt a large Husky mount bar (or similar) to a 10-series
saw, be sure to cut oil channels from the adjuster holes to the
chain groove. That's how these saws oil. D276, D176, and TMX
bars all have these channels. Like an A041 or K041 Poulan/Echo
bar. That reminds me................you can often use a K041
mount bar on a 10-series (or a D276/TMX on a K041 mount saw)
without modifying anything...
#Post#: 65518--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: DaveJ Date: November 25, 2015, 7:15 pm
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Ah! Thanks and sorry for muddying up the thread. :-\
#Post#: 65555--------------------------------------------------
Re: Large Frame McCulloch Bar Mounts.
By: Eccentric Date: November 26, 2015, 2:51 pm
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No problem.
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