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Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
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#Post#: 4942--------------------------------------------------
The Hard Stuff: Possible Motive: One-Off Murder: Whether It Was
Overkill: And A Case Against Ali
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: July 19, 2025, 9:14 am
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A thread to focus on the things we'll probably never figure out
but are worth giving a shot because we're a relentless lot. ;D
Share your suggestions as to whether or not the murder of
Carrie Brown was a one-off crime, a matter of overkill,
and your ideas as to a possible motive.
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A CASE AGAINST ALI
I believe the odds of her murder being part of a series are
significantly less than it being
a one-off crime, objectively, but I don't think there's any
chance of it being the work of
a serial killer. I also believe it was overkill.
Overkill is very often a sign of familiarity with the victim.
I also think the view of the police on the sequence of events
may have been right after all.
Right now, I lean toward Ali as being the murderer as a very
real possibility, more so than C. Kniclo or the (alleged)
Farmhand.
5 years ago, this wasn't my view, for certain. Over time, it has
begun to impress me, at least, as the likely answer.
Consider this:
How often has it occurred in history that we find one person
committing a murder....leaving the scene of the crime....and
then another person
goes into the crime scene shortly afterward....and contaminates
themselves with the physical evidence of the crime?
How often has it occurred in history that someone who did
saunter into a crime scene...contaminated themselves....and
then, when arrested, did not provide
their attorneys, if not the police, with the true account and
reason for their presence at the crime scene, particularly if
they were innocent of the crime, but could
be placed in the room by other evidence?
There's simply no reason for Ali to have not told his attorneys
that he was a victim of circumstance. Instead of doing the sane
thing....the thing
that could have been accepted by a jury....he decided to lie
from the beginning to the end. I think its safe to say that Ali
had to have been one
of the most prolific prevaricators we've ever seen on
trial....if not the most.
A brief and by no means the entire litany of lies told by Ali
brought up Inspector Byrnes:
New York Sun
May 1, 1891
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/0oiq1PB.jpg
How many times have we heard of 'jailhouse confessions', where
the killer boasts or simply unburdens themselves to someone
while in jail?
In this case, it wasn't a matter of one inmate confessing to
another, but divulging information to an interpreter hired by
the defense team at his trial.
Ali, allegedly, confessed to being in the room to Emile Sultan.
After Ali was found guilty, Sultan then had no obligation to the
people who hired
him to keep quiet and goes on to tell a number of people about
his confession. Had Ali been found innocent, Sultan could retain
or divulge what
Ali told him without the fear of Ali being tried again...due to
double jeopardy.
Having said that, to believe in Ali as being the murderer
doesn't hinge on the (alleged) confession one bit. It's just
another candle on the cake.
Overkill:
One significant feature of the murder was the unusual 'head
wrapping' undertaken by the murderer.
Reasons why a killer might cover a victim's face:
Remorse and guilt: Covering the victim's face may be a way for
the killer to avoid facing the reality of their actions and the
person they have harmed. This can be particularly true if the
killer knew the victim.
Emotional detachment: In some cases, covering the face might
serve as a psychological "undoing" or an attempt to
depersonalize the victim, making it easier for the perpetrator
to distance themselves emotionally from the act.
Familiarity with the victim: While not always the case, covering
the face is sometimes associated with situations where the
killer had some relationship with the victim (e.g., familial,
acquaintance).
Fear of identification/discovery: Though less likely to be the
primary motivation, covering the victim's face might be an
attempt to hinder identification or delay the discovery of the
body.
Of the four reasons, the one that stands out...at least to me...
is familiarity with the victim. Ali was quite familiar with
Brown.
Others might disagree.
A two-minute video with Michael Arntfield, a well-known
criminologist, on this subject:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lJqXJyhq-Gs?app=desktop
This excerpt from the May 1st, 1891 New York Sun features
Inspector Byrnes giving the police version of events.
Note that the 'head wrapping' is not mentioned in this account.
New York Sun
May 1, 1891
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/FGCvpqX.jpg
Lint and Ali's nails:
"The more I mull over the case, the more I like the theory that
Ben Ali was a not-quite innocent victim of circumstance who
worsened his case by lying. The key is the lint in the blood
under his nails. Lint didn’t get in Carrie’s blood until it got
onto the filthy sheet. If Ben Ali touched only Carrie’s severed
intestines, there would have been no lint. If he touched only
the blood on the sheet, he would have picked up the lint." -
Professor George Dekle, in a conversation with me.
On the other hand, Ali may have picked up the lint from his own
filthy sheet in his room, an issue I failed to bring up with
Prof. Dekle at the time.
If George Damon's story was true, it does not mean that his
farmhand murdered Carrie Brown. Simply being in possession of
the key and an ( alleged) bloody
shirt isn't evidence of the commission of a murder.
If his story was false and that he had no farmhand, it still
doesn't mean C. Kniclo was the murderer for the same reasons
applicable to the Farmhand scenario.
All comments and counter-arguments are most welcome.
#Post#: 4943--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Hard Stuff: Possible Motive: One-Off Murder: Whether It
Was Overkill: And A Case Against Ali
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: July 19, 2025, 9:44 am
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Motive:
Jealousy?
* Could he have expected Carrie Brown to accompany him that
night? Alice Sullivan heard
him tell Carrie that he was planning to go to the hotel earlier
that day. Might Carrie have told
him she would go with him but reneged on the rendezvous?
*Could Ali have searched for her, found out that she'd been
picked up by another man, and then,
an hour after Carrie and C. Kniclo had paid for a room in the
hotel, gone there in a bad mood?
* More than one newspaper reported that Brown was Ali's mash. In
fact Mary Briscoe teased him
about it.
*Could Ali have been jealous to the point that he would kill
her?
*Could Carrie have told him she wasn't going to the hotel, and
when Ali learned she was there
become enraged?
Money?
* One report found that Ali had $1.50 in his pocket. Was this
his money his or was it stolen
from Brown, who almost certainly received money for sex from C.
Kniclo?
Violent nature?
Ali displayed violence towards women. He created two situations
where at least two women were
forced to repel him inside their homes. In 1898, he nearly kills
William Greef with a mallet while
in prison. He may have had another altercation while in prison
or the asylum.
#Post#: 4960--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Hard Stuff: Possible Motive: One-Off Murder: Whether It
Was Overkill: And A Case Against Ali
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: July 24, 2025, 1:44 am
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As you’ll probably recall How I’ve previously mentioned my
feeling that the head-wrapping and the cross were reminiscent to
me of the kind of things that serial killers tend to do but, as
you’ve pointed out, this could have been overkill due to a
connection between killer and victim. I think that’s it’s often
difficult to shake something from your brain once something has
struck you as relevant and this is what’s happened with me.
(Another point that might be worth making is - how can we be
sure that Ali hadn’t killed before?
We do have to work hard to ‘exonerate’ Ali - the blood, the
proximity, his own history, the lies etc. Sometimes it’s the
case that the obvious culprit is the culprit. As you say
How….why would he keep quiet if he had an innocent explanation?
This leaves us with Damon’s decidedly fishy tale - hardly
convincing.
I guess that one of the questions that I’d like to get answered
(but that’s about as likely as you being the next Pope :) is -
why would anyone go to such an extent to pardon and free someone
like Ali? He was hardly an attractive ‘cause.’ I still wonder if
Ali was just a tool used to discredit a police force or an
administration or to make someone look good by giving them their
‘crusader for justice’ badge in the eyes of the public?
#Post#: 4961--------------------------------------------------
Re: The Hard Stuff: Possible Motive: One-Off Murder: Whether It
Was Overkill: And A Case Against Ali
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: July 24, 2025, 6:09 am
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Thanks, Mike....
The effort extended toward Ali by a major power ( France ) in
America's largest city to get this guy out of jail was
extraordinary.
Yet, there was a precedent of the French coming forward for a
down-and-out fellow who ( Henri Bulard, in 1888 ) was not only
a French subject in Manhattan, but a former soldier who had
served five years in Algeria....with a wife back home. His
crime was being poor,
not being a frequent visitor to the jails of New York or
physical altercations with women.
HTML https://carriebrown.createaforum.com/general-discussion/the-french-consulate-coming-to-the-aid-of-a-poor-french-citizen-this-time-in-188/msg3355/#msg3355
Why would anyone go to such an extent to pardon and free someone
like Ali? He was hardly an attractive ‘cause.’ I still wonder if
Ali was just a tool used to discredit a police force or an
administration or to make someone look good by giving them their
‘crusader for justice’ badge in the eyes of the public?
Mike...I believe if this case took place in Paris or any other
city in France....and the suspect was tried and convicted based
on forensic evidence along
with his performance, both on the witness stand and his non-stop
prevarication, that he would have a date with the 'national
razor' at one of the
various sites in Paris where they kept a guillotine.....without
much fanfare at all. Probably within a few weeks, if that.
Conversely, would the American consulate in Paris have extended
itself to the great extent that the French did?
The French Consulate and Government didn't have the case on the
front burner for the entire period from late 1897 to
April 1901, of course, but they did conduct campaigns in an
unprecedented fashion. Name gathering for a massive
petition: Local Francophone businessmen willing to put money
into his release and relocation: Appeals to the three
Governors...which claimed not to challenge the evidence against
him or the result of the trial, but rather they sought to
send him out of the country, out of New York's hair, and to a
place where he'd be forgotten. These things simply did not
happen in the 1890s. I practically live in the contemporary
press and have never seen a case that featured the elements
the pardon efforts on Ali's behalf did in any other case,
anywhere....or, the unprecedented feat performed by George
Damon,
standing on the sidelines for a decade with what was accepted as
exculpatory evidence that led to the release of a prisoner.
I don't think it's out of the box thinking to consider that the
less-than-satisfactory results of the 1897-1900 pardons led to
someone taking the extraordinary steps of fabricating a story,
hoping that it would secure a pardon for Ali. Ali wouldn't have
been released without that key and story, told by a member of
the business class.
Most people who follow this case have only scratched the surface
in terms of their awareness of the unusual events that
took place, thinking that the case was closed with the release
of Ali in April 1902.
For instance, there are the two letters written by Clubber
Williams to Governor Odell, inferring that he knew of something
that would lead to the release of Ali. He didn't write just one
letter...he wrote two. Why? He was living comfortably and
had been doing so for 6 years before the first letter was sent.
He didn't need money or recognition
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