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Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
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#Post#: 4771--------------------------------------------------
Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: June 15, 2025, 8:06 pm
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On another thread, Pete Damgaard mentioned the following in a
discussion over scenarios on the night of the 23rd of April.
Third post on this thread:
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If he did not kill her, either Kniclo left for a while (to clean
up, perhaps) or he left the door unlocked, and Ali entered to
steal something. This also takes into account the story of Ali
explaining this to his interpreter: he did not kill her, but was
in her room. He gets her blood on him, retreats to his room,
decides to wait, or falls asleep....
Something about the underlined section of his statement stuck in
my mind. Today I went back and re-read what William Thompson,
American stage actor, and Dr. Austin Flint, one of the
prosecution's medical experts, had to say about what interpreter
Emile Sultan told not only these two men, but others.
The storyline is essentially that Ali and Sultan were in
conversation while the former was in custody. Hired by the
French Consulate to assist the defense, Sultan's revelation made
its way to the ears of one of the prosecution's medical team,
and quite possibly others on the 'side' of the prosecution. It
begs the question whether or not Sultan shared this information
with the defense. Had he done so, and had Ali only told him he
came into contact with the body or simply went into the room, it
would undermine their effort to provide reasonable doubt.
Thompson and Flint both said that Sultan told them that Ali
admitted to being in room 31...
This is the relevant section of the Buffalo Courier June 12,
1902 article with Thompson's remarks:
"I am surprised that the story of 'Frenchy's' confession was
not published long ago," said Mr. Thompson. "I know the facts
are in the possession of several men. The news of the confession
could not by any means be called a secret."
"Emilio Sultan, an Arab, kept cigar stores in Broadway and
in 42nd Street, and it was there that I knew him. He was the
interpreter at Frenchy's trial. Frenchy was a member of a wild
ruffian tribe and he spoke more Arabic than French.
"Sultan talked with Frenchy many times in jail. The savage
prisoner was glad to see the only man in New York with whom he
could talk without restraint. I used to drink coffee in
Sultan's place and buy cigars (from) him, and he told me the
story. He said that Frenchy admitted the crime to him.
"But his admission took a curious form. On the night of the
murder, Frenchy admitted he went to the room in which the
woman's body lay. He handled the mutilated body, he said, but
would not admit killing the woman. Sultan has been dead for
years. I never regarded what he told me as a secret, for he
never treated it as such."
Now....what Dr. Flint said in 1903, in Collected Essays.. a
republication of his original 1891 remarks.
"The novelty of the testimony in this case, the unfamiliar
anthropological type of the accused, the unusually brutal
character of the crime and
the great interest in the prisoner on the part of some who
believed him innocent and who finally secured his release seem
to me to justify the republication of this article, although it
is simply a condensation of Article XXXIV. It has been rumored
that the prisoner made a confession to the person who
interpreted his testimony at the trial and that the interpreter
had told of this to several friends ; but the interpreter is
dead and the story of a confession can not be verified."
Thompson states the he was told Ali did not admit to the murder.
Flint, on the other hand, doesn't specify whether Sultan told
him that
Ali confessed to committing the murder or just merely being in
the room.
Let's put ourselves in Ali's shoes. We know from trial
testimony ( Nellie English), that Ali had a thing for going into
other rooms. Since
he apparently confessed to being in the room, consider these
facts:
The ambient light in Room 31, the corner room situated at
Catherine Slip and Water Street....was the only room in the
hotel which would have received light from both of those
streets.
Looking at the sketch.....how could Ali not notice she was dead?
What would possess him to come into contact with her corpse?
Was Ali's confession to Sultan just half of the true story?
Why confess at all?
HTML https://i.imgur.com/80G0jH6.png
HTML https://i.imgur.com/SrS4j3t.jpg
#Post#: 7416--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 15, 2026, 6:06 am
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I, for one, believe that anyone entering the room would have
seen Carrie was dead due to the ambient light.
I also believe that anyone who confessed to only handling her
body has some explaining to do.
The following also explains, IMHO, why her shoe is propping up
the window on the Water Street side of the hotel.
Coroner Schultze or a roving reporter did the honors.
It may not be the cat's meow for translating large articles, but
AI provided an answer that, to some, might
seem fairly obvious on something that I, personally, should have
asked a long time ago.
If a person is murdered and eviscerated with their abdomen
opened up, how long would it take for someone to smell the
eviscerated wound in a closed room?
In a closed room, the timeline for smelling an eviscerated wound
falls into two distinct categories: immediate visceral odors
from exposed internal organs, and subsequent decomposition odors
as post-mortem breakdown accelerates.
Intestinal Contents (Feces/Bile): If the gastrointestinal tract
(stomach, small intestine, or colon) is punctured or sliced
during the evisceration, the smell of intestinal contents, gut
bacteria, and digestive acids is instantaneous. In an enclosed
space with poor airflow, a person entering the room (or standing
nearby) would notice a distinct, pungent foul odor within
seconds to minutes.
Ali would have smelled her intestines....
Why in the hell would he handle the body?
I believe his confession was the lesser of two evils.
He confessed to being in the room because the evidence presented
at trial put him in the room... and he knew it.
His confession was an attempt to explain away how her blood and
biological material were on his person.
Of course, others might feel that he hadn't confessed and that
Sultan made the story up.
In any event....any thoughts?
Sketch of the room with Carrie in bed in the attachment below.
#Post#: 7417--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: September 15, 2026, 10:30 am
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It’s certainly a fair point How and one that can’t be brushed
aside. The only points that I would make are:
1. How good was Ali’s sense of smell? It might seem like I’m
trying to get him off the hook but some people do have a poorer
sense of smell. Maybe he had a cold?
2. The time between Ali opening the door and climbing onto the
bed could only have been a couple of seconds so if she had only
just been murdered maybe any smell didn’t immediately register
with him?
3. I can only imagine that the ERH wasn’t the most fragrant of
establishments at the best of times.
#Post#: 7418--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: September 15, 2026, 11:53 am
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Sultan was telling the truth, and Ali was certainly in contact
with Carrie Brown's body after the murder, as evidenced by her
blood on him.
The question is if he actually murdered her.
At any rate, the smell: Ali was a hardened veteran from a dirty
war, and was used to living in squalid circumstances at a time
when pungent odors were a daily part of life - as Mike says, the
hotel itself was no flowershop.
He was probably also blind drunk. So I find it possible that he
could have entered the room, noticed she was dead, but still
searched her for loot.
Her pockets were turned out, so someone searched through them,
and she didn't have the money (50 cents or so) she would have
gotten from C. Kniclo. To me that sounds more like Ali searching
her, than Kniclo searching her after killing her - Kniclo had no
problem springing for ale when she asked, so he was not shy on
cash. I also recall that Carrie Brown's face was wrapped,
indicating the killer was uncomfortable around the body, this to
me signals a reluctance to touch her, be around her and by
extension to search her belongings.
#Post#: 7419--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 15, 2026, 1:09 pm
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2. The time between Ali opening the door and climbing onto the
bed could only have been a couple of seconds so if she had only
just been murdered, maybe any smell didn’t immediately register
with him?
Possibly, but I believe the smell would have hit him
immediately. IMHO
At any rate, the smell: Ali was a hardened veteran from a dirty
war, and was used to living in squalid circumstances at a time
when pungent odors were a daily part of life
If so, then he was familiar with the odors that result from
wounds in that area of the body. Yes, it stunk back in the 19th
century for sure....but there's no mistaking the
odor that was coming from her corpse for garden variety odors,
I'd think.
I also recall that Carrie Brown's face was wrapped, indicating
the killer was uncomfortable around the body, this to me signals
a reluctance to touch her, be around her and by extension to
search her belongings.
To me, it indicates he didn't want the victim to see what he was
doing.
He was probably also blind drunk. So I find it possible that he
could have entered the room, noticed she was dead, but still
searched her for loot.
That makes our low opinion of Ali drop even further, doesn't it?
;D
It might seem like I’m trying to get him off the hook but some
people do have a poorer sense of smell.
Not at all, Mike. You're correct, it goes without saying, that
some people are more acute to odors than others.
#Post#: 7420--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 15, 2026, 3:31 pm
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Pete:
Her pockets were turned out, so someone searched through them,
and she didn't have the money (50 cents or so) she would have
gotten from C. Kniclo. To me that sounds more like Ali searching
her, than Kniclo searching her after killing her
Sort of difficult to find a pocket on a naked body........
Sorry I didn't mention this in my earlier response....doing
three things at once over here.
New York Evening World
April 24, 1891
*************
The body was completely naked. A deep gash extended from the
lower part of the abdomen upward to the breast, which
disembowelled it completely.
In one corner of the room lay the woman's tattered red flannel
skirt and torn stockings.
Over the back of the chair hung her checked gingham waist and a
cheap shoddy mantle.
#Post#: 7421--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 15, 2026, 4:00 pm
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She probably put any money she received from C. Kniclo in her
Chinese muslin bag.
Her clothes were distributed across the room, as the NYEW put
it, with the indifference of their class.
This is from the 25th ( New York Evening World) concerning the
stench in the room, but
it was published a day after the murder. It still smelled to
high heaven a day later.
The great patch of clotted blood which had dripped over the edge
of the bed on the middle of the
floor had not yet been removed. The stench in the place was
horrible and sickening.
The temperature that night was 58 degrees Fahrenheit....one of
the possible reasons her shoe was in the window, unless
someone other than CB and C Kniclo put the shoe in the window
before the NYEW reporter began taking notes on the 24th.
Her muslin bag in the attachment
#Post#: 7422--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 15, 2026, 5:07 pm
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Mike:
The time between Ali opening the door and climbing onto the bed
could only have been a couple of seconds so if she had only just
been murdered, maybe any smell didn’t immediately register with
him?
The amount of blood he would have had on his person if he had
climbed into bed not knowing she was eviscerated would have been
too much to simply wipe off. It would have been a substantial
amount of blood.
He also had it on his shirt.
I think he was clothed when he attacked her.
#Post#: 7429--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: September 17, 2026, 2:25 pm
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Howard, in this thread you mentioned the ambient light from the
streets, it being a corner room - I was just wondering how much
light would there actually have been? Were those streets
actually lit and lit all night, and if so, how much of the 19th
century weak lighting would reach the fifth floor?
It's not terribly important, just got me wondering. One
consequence of the Ripper murders was the increased awareness of
the poor lighting of East London streets. I am not sure what
level of lighting was common in the poorer areas of Manhattan at
that time?
#Post#: 7433--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sultan's Story Revisited
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 17, 2026, 4:27 pm
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Pete:
This is one response I got to your question, although you might
have already found something similar:
Commercial Pockets: Brighter ambient light was only found along
major commercial thoroughfares or
pushcart markets (like Hester Street), where shopkeepers hung
kerosene lanterns, torches, or early
commercial electric signs to illuminate their wares.
While electrical street lighting (primarily high-intensity arc
lamps) was introduced to New York City in
the 1880s and expanded throughout the 1890s, electric lights
were almost exclusively prioritized for
major commercial thoroughfares (such as Broadway, 125th Street,
and Fifth Avenue) and prominent
public squares (like Union Square and Madison Square).
By contrast, the waterfronts, docks, and residential/industrial
side streets of the Fourth Ward and
Lower East Side—including Water Street and Catherine
Slip—remained lit by the municipal gas grid
well into the early 20th century. As late as 1893, New York
City operated over 26,500 gas street
lamps compared to only about 1,500 electric street lights.
Catherine Market may have provided some ambient light, as well
as gas lamps on or near the intersection
of Catherine Slip & Water.
Then, there's the moonlight..............
Was the Moon visible in Lower Manhattan on the night of April
23rd and morning of April 24th, 1891?
Yes, the Moon was visible—barring local cloud cover—over Lower
Manhattan on the night of April 23 and the morning of April 24,
1891.
Moon Phase: The Moon reached its Full Moon phase on April 23–24,
1891 (approximately 98% to 100% illuminated).
Position in the Sky: Because it was a full moon, it rose around
sunset on the evening of April 23 and remained
in the sky all night, setting near sunrise on the morning of
April 24.
Visibility Conditions: A full moon produces maximum brightness,
making it clearly visible in the night sky
and providing significant ambient moonlight across the East
River waterfront. Official meteorological
forecasts printed in local newspapers (such as the New-York
Tribune) reported fair to partly cloudy
weather for the area during those hours.
I had the 'moonlight' reference already stashed on a thumb
drive...tried to find it...,..failed...so I asked AI.
That's why I said there was ambient light earlier.
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