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Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
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#Post#: 291--------------------------------------------------
Frenchy #2
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: October 16, 2022, 4:55 am
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I started this thread after I began a re-read of The ERR (my
apologies to Prof Dekle for re-titling his book.) I was
wondering about how and why Frenchy #2 entered the investigators
orbit? It appears that it was after the 9am meeting at the Oak
Street Station between Byrnes, McLaughlin and O’Connor (with Ali
being called in) when, in the prepared statement that resulted,
Byrnes told the Press that once they had located Frenchy #2 they
would have the killer.
So diD Ali mention that his cousin was around? It doesn’t seem
likely that he would have thrown his cousin under the bus but
then refused to disclose any more information about him? Mary
Miniter had already given the Police a description of C. Kniclo
which they had no real reason to doubt at the time so how did
this description point to Frenchy #2? Had they already spoken to
Mary Harrington at that point? If they had then they would have
known that Miniter’s description of Kniclo didn’t match
Harrington’s description of Frenchy #2.
I’m almost certainly missing something here but it’s difficult
to see why Frenchy #2 became Byrnes ‘most wanted?’ After all,
they by then had the trail of blood running from number 31 to
Ali’s room 33. So where did Frenchy #2 come from and why did
Byrnes consider Ali his number one suspect at that point?
#Post#: 292--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 16, 2022, 6:54 am
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I was wondering about how and why Frenchy #2 entered the
investigators orbit? It appears that it was after the 9am
meeting at the Oak Street Station between Byrnes, McLaughlin and
O’Connor (with Ali being called in) when, in the prepared
statement that resulted, Byrnes told the Press that once they
had located Frenchy #2 they would have the killer.
So did Ali mention that his cousin was around? It doesn’t seem
likely that he would have thrown his cousin under the bus but
then refused to disclose any more information about him? Mary
Miniter had already given the Police a description of C. Kniclo
which they had no real reason to doubt at the time so how did
this description point to Frenchy #2? Had they already spoken to
Mary Harrington at that point? If they had then they would have
known that Miniter’s description of Kniclo didn’t match
Harrington’s description of Frenchy #2.
I’m almost certainly missing something here but it’s difficult
to see why Frenchy #2 became Byrnes ‘most wanted?’ After all,
they by then had the trail of blood running from number 31 to
Ali’s room 33. So where did Frenchy #2 come from and why did
Byrnes consider Ali his number one suspect at that point?
**********************************************************************************************************************************************************
Thanks for starting this thread, Mike. I believe a good number
of people are missing something out of this early days issue, me
being one of them.
In case you overlooked it, I put an East River Echo together
months ago ( which I've added below) about an Algerian named
John Smith who lived in Double Alley, which was local.
Byrnes was the one who dismissed La Bruckman, originally thought
of as being Frenchy # 2. from the investigation.
Ali, to the best of our knowledge, had no family in New
York....we know his friends in Brooklyn weren't blood kin....he
had no family in Manhattan....and for that reason, I was
interested in what Ali was doing in Queens ( another borough of
NYC) because he was arrested there at least once, possibly
twice. I never got a bead on why he would drift from Manhattan
and Brooklyn but it wasn'r 'family related'.
Back to John Smith. The following won't answer your original
question*, but it may clear up who Frenchy # 2 was. I'll use an
example of another 'search' conducted a decade ago that was
worth the effort.
Long while back, I was looking into newspapers for material on
Francis Tumblety ( a non-starter as a Ripper suspect imho, but a
very interesting character). I came across a newspaper article
in a
Buffalo newspaper ( Buffalo papers have provided some valuable
articles in the Hotel Case and in the WM research, as
well)....which talked about John Wilkes Booth. Inside the
article was a brief mention of Booth's machinations while in
Buffalo and his association with Tumblety. Tumblety was NOT the
subject of the article, Booth was. To me and a few others, this
was far more important than a rank and file article on Tumblety
which might mention Booth. Tumblety and Booth had been linked,
matter of factly, and in a non WM-suspect based article.
I feel the same way about the 1893 article that I've added. The
subject matter was crime in the vicinity. Not quite at the end
of the article, he casually mentions John Smith, a.k.a. Frenchy
# 2, as living in Double Alley, being a rough sort of character,
and having been known as Frenchy # 2, as well as being Ali's
cousin.
To me, it may solve the mystery of who Frenchy # 2 was since, as
with the Booth in Buffalo article, the theme of the article was
not about Frenchy # 2, Carrie Brown, or anything to do with the
Hotel Murder...but crime in that particular area....and Smith
and his nickname casually coming up during the report.
More later, Mike....and thanks again for cranking this up.
* Some descriptions of the man seen with Ali, Brown, and another
local woman around the time of the murder mention him being fair
haired....
#Post#: 294--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 16, 2022, 7:11 am
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Mike:
I've added the December 18, 1893 edition of the NY World....a
rather long article.....sixth column, half way down is the
reference to John Smith.
#Post#: 299--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: October 16, 2022, 9:14 am
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I certain recall reading the John Smith Echo How and he does
seem like a likely candidate to me. It’s just a case of how the
unnamed Frenchy #2 came to be mentioned, let alone wanted by
Byrnes? I wouldn’t have thought that the list of candidates for
the proposer of Frenchy #2 could have been a particularly
extensive one. If #2 was known by Harrington and he’d even
shared a room at her house with Dublin Mary then surely he’d
have been known by some of the other women and yet no one
mentioned seeing him. Wouldn’t Mary Miniter have known him too?
I guess that would be an assumption.
Do you think it’s possible that, in desperation at his position,
Ali just plucked his ‘cousin’ out of thin air as the killer of
Brown? On the downside of course they would have had to have
thought “well, if he was at the hotel why won’t he gives us his
name or any helpful information to help us catch him?” As Byrnes
had said that finding Frenchy #2 would have meant ‘case solved’
so it appears that he expected to track him down - I assume
because #2 was well known in the area?
The whole Frenchy #2 thing is strange imo How.
#Post#: 301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: October 16, 2022, 9:31 am
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From the ERR:
“The last time I saw Frenchy [No. 1]’s cousin was on Friday
morning, the day after the murder. He came here about eleven
o’clock in the morning and wanted to know if I had seen anything
of his cousin, meaning the man that is under arrest. I told him
I hadn’t. Of course I didn’t know nothing about his being wanted
then and nothing about the murder.” “There was a woman in the
back room here called ‘Dublin Mary,’ and when she saw the man
she called out ‘Say, Frenchy—that’s the only name I ever heard
for either of the cousins—‘Say, Frenchy, ain’t you going to
treat me?’ “He said something, I don’t know what. I was just
going out to the butcher’s at the time, and then ‘Dublin Mary’
sings out:—‘Say Mame’—that’s me—‘Say, Mame, what do you think of
this? Frenchy [No. 1] had old Shakespeare at the East River
Hotel all last night.’
The morning after the murder Frenchy #2 is asking for Ali and
this is before the murder has become common knowledge Frenchy #2
appears to know that Ali was with Brown at the hotel the
previous night. How would he have known this and why would he
have felt it necessary to tell this to Dublin Mary? Was #2
trying to find out what Ali had told the police?
#Post#: 302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 16, 2022, 10:44 am
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Good questions Mike.
The morning after the murder Frenchy #2 is asking for Ali and
this is before the murder has become common knowledge Frenchy #2
appears to know that Ali was with Brown at the hotel the
previous night. How would he have known this and why would he
have felt it necessary to tell this to Dublin Mary? Was #2
trying to find out what Ali had told the police?
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For one thing, when this man Harrington named as Frenchy #2 came
to her house...she stated it was at 11....news of the murder,
via the Lower East Side tom-toms, had spread like wildfire since
the body was discovered at approximately 10 A.M. Many people
would have known about him by that time. Oak Street, as you
know, was within spitting distance of the ERH.
For the life of me....I cannot understand why no newspaper sent
a sketch artist to Harrington or any of the people who mentioned
Frenchy # 2 and sketched a likeness. Mindboggling.
The 'cousin' reference may have been invented to represent the
friendly relationship between Ali and the man labeled his
cousin...or a designation based on them sharing a common
homeland or Arabic background. In short, there may have been
more than one man Ali called 'his cousin' in the neighborhood.
Do you think it’s possible that, in desperation at his position,
Ali just plucked his ‘cousin’ out of thin air as the killer of
Brown? On the downside of course they would have had to have
thought “well, if he was at the hotel why won’t he gives us his
name or any helpful information to help us catch him?” As Byrnes
had said that finding Frenchy #2 would have meant ‘case solved’
so it appears that he expected to track him down - I assume
because #2 was well known in the area?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not convinced that what Byrnes is attributed to having said
about finding Frenchy 2 in order to wrap the case up was 100
percent true. Byrnes, if he said it and there are indicators
that suggest he did, could have said that as a stunt on the part
of the police in their holding back from what they had on Ali
and being genuinely interested in finding C. Kniclo simply to
clear up the matter of what his movements were that night.. The
latter part we know is true by their efforts, the former a hunch
on my part, obviously.
What this hunt for Frenchy # 2 ( we know LaBruckman's alibi was
sufficient as was every man of the 50 something men they dragged
in...probably a low figure) did in a sense is put the lie to the
belief/agenda that the police framed Ali by planting blood to
implicate him. It needs to be shown that if this theory were
true, then why did the police continue to search for him into
May, after Ali had been named as the perpetrator on the 29th but
announced on April 30th ?
The argument that the police 'settled' for Ali is also flimsy.
Planting blood in Room 31 and then actually finding C. Kniclo
and discovering in one way or the other that he was her killer
would propel the press and those in City Hall to crash down on
top of Byrnes like a ton of bricks. Also factor in the time
expended and manpower wasted by a theorized gimmick to make it
seem the police were sincerely searching for C. Kniclo when all
along they had Ali down as their man. Not very practical or
feasible, IMHO
While WE know that C. Kniclo wouldn't be found.....the NYPD
couldn't know that in April or May of 1891. The possibility of
him being found was always a consideration to contend with to
the police.
More to follow, boss.
#Post#: 305--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: October 16, 2022, 3:58 pm
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Isn’t it a little strange that La Bruckman admitted being
related to Ali though? Is that why he was brought to the
police’s attention in the first place? Because someone knew that
he was related to Ali?
#Post#: 306--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 16, 2022, 4:09 pm
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Isn’t it a little strange that La Bruckman admitted being
related to Ali though? Is that why he was brought to the
police’s attention in the first place? Because someone knew that
he was related to Ali?
Mike...when you get a chance, please point me in the direction
of a source which states La Bruckman claimed to be Ali's
relative.
Thanks !
I've added a PDF...East River Echo Number 140....Frenchy #2 ? -
Banana Boat....give 'er a look.
#Post#: 307--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: October 16, 2022, 4:25 pm
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I got it from the ERR How:
“He claimed to know nothing at all about the murder of Carrie
Brown, although he did admit that he was related to Frenchy.”
The footnote says:
“Was Not the Ripper”; “Is this the Ripper?”; Elmira (NY)
Star-Gazette, April. 29, 1891; “Jack the Ripper” Troy (NY)
Times, April. 30th, 1891; “Frenchy No. 2” Rochester (NY)
Democrat and Chronicle, April. 30th, 1891.
#Post#: 308--------------------------------------------------
Re: Frenchy #2
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 16, 2022, 5:08 pm
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Mike:
Thanks for providing the sources.....all out of town (
Manhattan) papers.
You'll remember that La Bruckman also was reported to have said
he had been picked up in London and interrogated as a suspect in
the Whitechapel Murders. Total nonsense.
No idea where the out of town papers...... two of the ones you
provided at a different time also claimed James Jennings, hotel
proprietor, was a respectable uptown man but no paper in NYC
expressed that view of the brothel/hotel owner, came up with
that claim of kinship between the two. Like the claim
attributed to La Bruckman as being a suspect in London, it's not
true.
Considering he was brought into a Manhattan police station,
queried by Manhattan police, and cleared by Manhattan police,
the Manhattan papers ought to contain a mention of La Bruckman's
alleged kinship to Ali....but they don't.
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