DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
HTML https://carriebrown.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Editorials & Essays
*****************************************************
#Post#: 4656--------------------------------------------------
How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: May 28, 2025, 8:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Much was made of the missing key to Room 31 back in 1891 and
still is a bone of contention today.
There is a very, very good chance that the door was not locked.
Eddie Fitzgerald testified that he put his key in the door lock
to open it, but did he actually have to unlock it?
If C. Kniclo murdered Brown, Ali cannot get the material under
his nails unless the door was unlocked.
C. Kniclo and Brown enter room 31. C. Kniclo leaves Brown and
takes the key with him. He does not
lock the door. Ali goes over to an unlocked room 31. He enters
and eventually kills Brown.
Damon's story can be either true or false and is irrelevant as
it pertains to the crime, since whoever left room 31, C. Kniclo
or
C. Kniclo/Frank the Farmhand, left an unlocked room. His story
is relevant in that it may have led to the
release of a guilty man.
#Post#: 4657--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: May 28, 2025, 12:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Howard, how much was made of the missing key in 1891?
And what does it imply?
As I recall, the main mention of the key was a sketch, with the
caption “The murderer has the key”
What else was discussed or mentioned at the time?
The mentions of Fitzgerald using his masterkey and the sketch of
the key in my opinion strongly imply that the door was locked.
Fitzgerald would not use his masterkey if the door was not
locked, is what I’m saying
#Post#: 4658--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: May 28, 2025, 4:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Howard, how much was made of the missing key in 1891..... And
what does it imply?
As I recall, the main mention of the key was a sketch, with the
caption “The murderer has the key”
What else was discussed or mentioned at the time?
The mentions of Fitzgerald using his master key and the sketch
of the key, in my opinion, strongly imply that the door was
locked.
Fitzgerald would not use his master key if the door was not
locked, is what I’m saying.
*********************************************************
Thanks for pitching in, Pete. In looking back, I may have
over-emphasized the 'importance' of the key in 1891, although it
was
mentioned several times in the first 7 days of case reportage.
It became more important in 1901.
With due respect, while Fitzgerald did say he put his key in the
lock on the outside of the door, I don't think it's out of whack
to suggest that he didn't actually unlock the door. I think it
may have already been open. ( unlocked).
I am adding some key ( no pun intended) pages from the Trial
regarding on Corcoran or Fitzgerald opening the door.
Mary Corcoran claimed to have opened the door...as did
Fitzgerald. Both did so at the trial.
I'm sure you knew this already. For this exercise in picking up
mercury with our fingertips, who opened the door is irrelevant
Neither one mentioned opening the door at the Coroner's Inquest,
a result, in all likelihood, of them not being asked. Not sure
if you were aware of this.
Here is Corcoran on the issue of opening the door at the Trial:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/MuXe260.jpg
Here is Fitzgerald on the same issue of opening the door, also
at the Trial:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/mq0kOW3.jpg
Here we find Fitzgerald revealing that tenants would, on
occasion, leave their keys in the lock on the outside of the
room door.
This is one reason why I believe it is possible the door was
left unlocked. Fitzy, not the brightest bulb on the tree,
judging by his testimony,
may have simply omitted the ( possibility) that he really didn't
need to unlock the door, rather he is describing the sequence of
events
while on the stand. He may have assumed the door was locked
without trying to enter otherwise.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/6bjNWec.jpg
Another tidbit which might raise an eyebrow.
On those occasions when the missing key was mentioned, we
usually find it mentioned as being made of brass.
Here, Fitzgerald, ten years before the Jennings affidavit,
describes it as being made of another material....cast iron.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/7XkPcq4.jpg
Additionally, if C. Kniclo did lock the door and take the key,
then how will Ali get material under his nails from Brown's
corpse?
If C. Kniclo left the door unlocked, as a murderer or otherwise,
then Ali can get in the room and either murder her or
simply come into contact with the corpse.
This thought or position on this issue is similar to the police
and the State's version of events: C. Kniclo left Brown alive
and the room without locking it. Ali
then went over and murdered Brown.
Damon may have told the truth, after all. Possession of the key,
I believe, was a red herring in our effort to resolve this
seemingly unresolvable murder.
#Post#: 4668--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: May 30, 2025, 6:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Well spotted, Howard.
I'll reply about the key's material in the other thread.
As you mention, both Corcoran and Fitzgerald claimed to have
opened the door. How to reconcile this?
One explanation might be that Corcoran understood the "you" to
pertain to both her and Fitzgerald, i.e. "Was the door locked
when you, the hotel staff, entered? How did you, the hotel
staff, open it?"
However, I think the most likely explanation might suit your
theory better, Howard: Fitzgerald opened the door, saw the body,
and ran to get Corcoran, as he testified. Corcoran then went up
to the room - the door had slammed shut, either Fitzgerald had
relocked it (seems unlikely) or it had locked automatically?
This would probably be a common feature of the doors, having
only a doorknob on the outside, because those doors locked
automatically upon closing and always required a key to open.
Corcoran testified before Fitzgerald at the trial, but both at
the inquest and at trial stated, that Fitzgerald found the body
first, then notified her - which of course is what Fitzgerald
himself said.
So I don't think there's any doubt that they both opened the
door, using the pass key - first Fitzgerald, then Corcoran.
Important in any case is that Corcoran does state positively
that the door was locked. Fitzgerald does not specifically
mention it. I personally think that since he used the passkey,
the inference is that the door was locked. Since he opened it,
then left, after which the door was locked, I think the door
would lock automatically upon closing. What do you think?
If C. Kniclo didn't bother pulling the door shut when leaving,
it could still be open for Ali to come in. Or, if Carrie Brown
was still alive after C. Kniclo left, she could have let Ali in.
#Post#: 4673--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: May 30, 2025, 8:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Excellent stuff, Pete.
I'm not necessarily sold on the scenario of Fitzgerald going to
get Corcoran so she could go see what he just saw. I believe,
unless I'm imagining it, the earliest account found Fitzgerald
running downstairs and telling Jennings about the scene in room
31....and of course, Jennings ran all the way ( to the Oak
Street Station). I'm fairly certain that Jennings had a feeling
that this might be the straw that broke the camel's back, and
the city would shut down the already-on-the-shit-list hotel
down.
That's a chilling scenario you bring up here, boss. That C.
Kniclo didn't even close the door, much less lock it. Anyone
could have walked by or even into the room.
Additionally, your suggestion makes me consider that Brown,
herself, asked C. Kniclo to leave the door ajar....in case
another client might pass by the room.
Important in any case is that Corcoran does state positively
that the door was locked. Fitzgerald does not specifically
mention it. I personally think that since he used the passkey,
the inference is that the door was locked. Since he opened it,
then left, after which the door was locked, I think the door
would lock automatically upon closing. What do you think?
Not knowing the way the door lock worked....I think it's also
possible that the door was shut but unlocked when Fitzy knocked
on the door. He then puts the key into the lock and discovers
it was only pulled too....he testified that he saw no key in the
door lock and then put his pass-key in....then, in my scenario,
he discovers that it's not actually locked. He then sees Brown,
turns and locks the door with the key he has left in the
lock....and runs off. Then Corcoran comes to the room, opens the
now-locked door, and she also sees the body.
#Post#: 4684--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: June 1, 2025, 11:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Back to the issue as to who exactly opened the door.
1. Witnesses in criminal cases were, and still are in most
cases, required to sit outside of the courtroom and wait their
turn
before being called into the courtroom to testify. Unless
testimonies are rehearsed by witnesses, each witness will offer
a version of events which might be different from another.
2. Through the actual trial transcript, we know that Mary
Corcoran testified first, and Eddie Fitzgerald testified
afterwards.
3. Since both testified, also from the trial transcript, that
they had opened the door, it appears that they did not
anticipate
the issue or being questioned about which one opened the door,
although it was widely known that one of the two had opened it
dating back to April 24th.. We know that neither one was asked
this question back in May, a fact reflected in the Coroner's
Inquest transcript.
Therefore, it seems very unlikely that the two discussed the
issue of who opened the door first while they waited to be
called into the courtroom,
if, in fact, they were in the corridor together and not in the
courtroom at the same time.
4. If Corcoran had opened it first, and this is just a possible
scenario, she would have screamed or she would have at least
yelled for Fitzgerald
unless he didn't hear her anyway....told him about the dead body
in room 31...which would result in Fitzgerald going up to room
31 to see
the body for himself, turning around and running back down the
stairs and informing Jennings. There'd be no need for Fitzgerald
to open or
unlock the already open door, a door opened by Corcoran, if her
testimony was accurate.
5. If Fitzgerald had opened it first...then Corcoran was
obviously mistaken. Fitzgerald may have locked the door behind
him and run
down the stairs to tell Jennings. Meanwhile, Corcoran wanted to
see the room for herself. She now opens the locked door, a door
locked by Fitzgerald
and possibly unlocked at the time he went up to the rooms to
roust the tenants.
The Boston Globe mentioned the statements of both Fitzy and
Corcoran in the same paragraph.
Boston Globe
June 30, 1891
***********
HTML https://i.imgur.com/chD6lQ2.jpg
Another out-of-town paper...
Rochester Democrat
June 30, 1891
************
HTML https://i.imgur.com/PGYoAbC.jpg
#Post#: 4701--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: June 6, 2025, 3:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Howard, let's look at the inquest testimony first.
Just to be clear, Fitzgerald did not hear Corcoran's testimony:
[attachimg=1]
Corcoran's relevant testimony:
--- Quote ---
> Wellman:
> When did you first know anything about this woman being
killed?
>
> Corcoran:
> When Edward Fitzgerald came down and said he had seen the
woman up there and she had blood on her -
>
> [...]
>
> Wellman:
> Somebody told you Shakespeare was murdered?
>
> Yes
>
> Wellman:
> Did you go up?
>
> Yes
>
> Wellman
> Did you open the door?
> Yes
>
> [...]
>
> House:
> And the net time [that you saw Carrie Brown] was on Friday
night when you found the dead body?
>
> Corcoran:
> I didn't find find it.
>
> House:
> You went up in the room?
>
> Corcoran:
> Eddie Fitzgerald did.
>
--- End Quote ---
The last exchange is relevant, she's not saying she did not see
the body or went into the room, she's just clarifying, that she
did not find the body, Eddie Fitzgerald did.
Oddly, Fitzgerald was not questioned about finding the body
during the inquest.
#Post#: 4702--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: June 6, 2025, 4:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
During the trial, Fitzgerald was questioned:
--- Quote ---
> A. Yes, sir, and I knocked on the door, and there was no key
in the door, and I put the pass key
> in.
> Mr. House: Objected to, and I move to strike it out.
> The answer is allowed to stand.
> Exception.
> By Mr. Wellman.
> Q. You put a pass key in and what else?
> A. And opened the door.
> Q. And what did you see?
> A. And I seen this woman, with her head all bandaged up, and
there was blood all over the
> ticking and all over the floor, and I ran down and I called
Mamie Corcoran and ———
> Objected to. Objection sustained.
> Q. You ran down.
> A. Yes, sir.
> Q. And had a conversation with someone?
> A. Yes, sir.
> Q. And you didn’t go up stairs again after that?
> A. No, sir.
>
--- End Quote ---
And here's the relevant part of Corcoran's testimony, achoing
that of Fitzgerald:
--- Quote ---
> Q. Now did you go——the next morning did you hear——How did
> you happen to hear anything about the fact that Shakespeare
was killed?
> A. Eddie Fitzgerald came down and told us that——
>
> Mr. House: Objected to.
> Q. Well, you heard in some way that there was some reason
> for you to go upstairs?
> A. Yes sir.
> Q. Did you go upstairs?
> A. Yes sir.
> Q. Well what did you do?
> The Court:
> Q. First what time in the morning was it?
> A. Well. I could not say the time. It was between ten
> and eleven o’clock.
> Q. In the morning?
> A. Yes sir.
> Mr. Wellman:
> Q. Now, where did you go and what did you see?
> A. Well I went upstairs when I heard that and went into the
> room.
> Q. Now wait a moment. Went up how many flights?
> A. Two more flight, that is the landing I was on.
> Q. You went up to the fourth floor then?
> A. Yes sir.
> Q. In what room did you go?
>
> A. Room 33.
> Q. Is that the corner room?
> A. Yes sir.
> Q. Was the door locked when you entered?
> A. Yes sir the door was locked.
> Q. How did you open it?
> A. With the pass key.
> Q. What did you see when you got in there?
> A. I saw the woman lying there.
> Q. What woman?
> A. This Shakespeare.
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 4703--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: June 6, 2025, 4:19 am
---------------------------------------------------------
So based on the their respective testimony, I have no doubt that
Fitzgerald opened the door first, saw Carrie Brown, then went
and told Corcoran. She then went upstairs to see for herself.
So both opened the door - first Fitzgerald, then Corcoran.
As the door was locked when Corcoran went there, there are two
possibilities: Fitzgerald locked it himself after seeing the
body, or it locked automatically when he shut the door.
I strongly favour the second option. Note that during testimony
about the various entrances to the hotel from Water street etc.
Fitzgerald is asked whether the outside door has a "spring
lock", which it doesn't, it has to be locked with the key.
But the question shows that spriing locks could easily have been
in place elsewhere. Spring locks make sense in a hotel, where
simply pulling the door to would lock it.
#Post#: 4704--------------------------------------------------
Re: How Relevant Was The Room Key In The Case, Anyway?
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: June 6, 2025, 6:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Excellent work, Pete....thanks for the analysis.
As the door was locked when Corcoran went there, there are two
possibilities: Fitzgerald locked it himself after seeing the
body, or it locked automatically when he shut the door.
Note that during testimony about the various entrances to the
hotel from Water street etc. Fitzgerald is asked whether the
outside door has a "spring lock", which it doesn't, it has to be
locked with the key.
But the question shows that spring locks could easily have been
in place elsewhere. Spring locks make sense in a hotel, where
simply pulling the door to would lock it.
Pete...I'm not sure about the emboldened part of your remark.
It would make less sense to me as someone from the hotel would
have to walk up four flights to open it every time some drunk or
absent-minded tenant walked out of his room because the key was
left in the room with a spring lock. That would wear out pretty
fast.
I think Wellman was trying to ascertain the type of lock used on
the Water Street entrance, since some of the other entrances in
use at other establishments were spring lock.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 2
DIR Next Page