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Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
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#Post#: 2902--------------------------------------------------
An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 13, 2024, 11:47 am
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This is the official commutation paper signed by Governor Odell
in 1902
HTML https://i.imgur.com/u1H6psd.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/QTJmZ7B.jpg
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This is the issue I have with it, found in Odell's comments
here:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/uvJzLGW.jpg
Former Hotel proprietor James Jennings's Affidavit:
HTML https://i.imgur.com/5yfEpjl.jpg
HTML https://i.imgur.com/6msXPd2.jpg
Here's the real problem.
D.A. Eugene Philbin sent Detective Robert McNaught to the East
River Hotel in 1901.
This is a report from Philbin to Governor Odell concerning the
authenticity of the key Damon brought forward:
The details of the finding of the key, together with such proofs
as bear upon its alleged genuineness will be found fully set
forth in the additional statements and affidavits
herewith submitted. In order to trace and verify, if possible,
the genuineness of said key, I cause an investigation to be made
of the premises, formerly known as the East River Hotel, the
house in which the old woman known as 'Shakespeare' was found
murdered on April 24, 1891. This investigation was conducted by
Detective Sergeant McNaught, of the Central Office, at present
on special duty in the District Attorney's office, and he
reports in
substance as follows:
That he diligently followed my instructions and ascertained that
not a vestige of the old house as it existed at the time of the
murder--save the walls--in now left.
That some few months after the tragedy occurred the then
proprietor--Mr. James Jennings-- retired from the hotel business
and moved away; that the place was then closed and remained
closed for about three years; that while it was thus closed, a
fire occurred in the place which did considerable damage
interiorly; that the inside of the house was afterward changed
and altered into a tenement house; that it is occupied as such
at the present time, with a barroom on the ground floor and
several rooms "for gentlemen only", evidently reserved to meet
the requirements of Raines Law.
In the renovation of the place about five years ago, the rooms
that existed when the place was run as a hotel were ripped out
(Note: that would be during 1896), the locks and keys being
disposed of at the time with the other debris of the place and
carried away, nobody knowing what became of them
June 21,1901
Now, take into consideration what the Governor said in his paper
about the key ' evidently being part of the same set'.
Something is out of whack.
#Post#: 2903--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 13, 2024, 12:08 pm
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Three final thoughts for the moment, at least:
1. New York wanted to be rid of Ali, once and for all. That the
French were so heavily involved with the matter would override
any loose ends.
2. That had Governor Odell not seen Philbin's report of June 21,
1901, then he could be excused for an oversight.
3. That Governor Odell did see the report and had responded to
it indicates he was willing to overlook an issue with the
authenticity of the key or he was lying.
It was not true that the key matched an existing set of keys
since there was no set of keys to match it with.
None of this, of course, was meant for public scrutiny...not
even those who were alive and participated in the case in some
form or the other from back in 1891...other than Jennings.
#Post#: 2904--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: August 13, 2024, 3:02 pm
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Hello Howard
He is not lying or anything, the sentence you underlined is a
paraphrase of Damon’s story.
He is simply saying that after the key was found in the
farmhand’s room, it was compared (by the people coming forward
with their affidavits) to the hotel’s other keys and found (by
the same people) to be part of the same set.
He is not considering Jennings’ recollection or McNaught’s
findings.
#Post#: 2905--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 13, 2024, 3:33 pm
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Thank you, Pete.
It means Odell signed the commutation despite the absence of
another key from the hotel to compare to Damon's and
blindly accepted that whatever Damon said was accurate, despite
the effort Philbin initiated to determine authenticity.
I have it down to a 'class issue' where Damon's social class
allowed him to say whatever he wanted, true or otherwise,
without
the scrutiny a commutation or pardon should require.
I changed the rhetoric in my previous post accordingly.
#Post#: 2907--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: August 14, 2024, 1:31 am
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Yes, he is basing it in large part on the perceived
respectability of the affiants:
“Persons of repute” particularly Damon, who has been a NY
businessman for 30 years and is vouched for by gov. Vorhees as
having “excellent character”.
He does go on to say: “No motive to misrepresent is apparent”,
which I fully agree with and which I think is important to
remember, when you are considering Damon’s actions. You have
been inclined to consider Damon’s story a fabrication made for a
variety of possible reasons. I find that unsubstantiated and
here we have the governor’s office saying essentially the same
in 1902: this group of people has no real reason to lie about
it.
I personally don’t attach much weight to Jennings’ recollection;
he uses terms of slight uncertainty “as far as he has any
recollection “ but more importantly the key was described in
1891 as being brass, so Jennings claiming, from hesitant memory
10 years later, that it wasn’t - is not enough.
What does the next sentences on the next page of Odell’s papers
say, the sentence starting “Attention has been called…”?
#Post#: 2908--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 14, 2024, 5:28 am
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/1X5qYBj.jpg
He does go on to say: “No motive to misrepresent is apparent”,
which I fully agree with and which I think is important to
remember when you are considering Damon’s actions. You have been
inclined to consider Damon’s story a fabrication made for a
variety of possible reasons. I find that unsubstantiated and
here we have the governor’s office saying essentially the same
in 1902: this group of people has no real reason to lie about
it.
Pete...as far as I can determine, the group of people consists
of Damon, Lee, and Brennan. Two couldn't remember the number on
the key, which I find suspicious.
Fortunately, in the matter of the farm hand's description, there
is no group. Just Damon in one corner and Mary Miniter in the
other.
'No motive to misrepresent is apparent, IMHO, isn't
conclusive...just Odell's interpretation. Odell not seeing any
chicanery doesn't mean there wasn't any being undertaken.
Who knows what lurks in the heart of a New Jersey printer? ;)
#Post#: 2910--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 14, 2024, 6:35 am
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".....its non-production cannot be justly attributed to lack of
diligence..."
Really, Governor?
How about Damon just mailing/sending that material in
anonymously to authorities back in 1891?
There was no real danger to Damon or his family. It wasn't as if
the farmhand( assuming there was one)
was lurking in the vicinity.
Apparently, Odell didn't feel the waste of money and imposition
on the witnesses was too much of an issue.
The thought that Ali might have died in prison because of
Damon's reluctance to come forward isn't addressed.
The more important aspect of his reticence is that HE might have
died and Ali would wind up dying in prison as a result.
Between you and me, Pete, I still cannot believe that not one
single newspaper in Manhattan took a critical look at what
he did and what may have happened had he not come forward. Who
cares if two Washington newspaper articles were
critical of him?
It's here that, IMHO, Damon's social class was very important in
how his delay in coming forward was considered
acceptable.
#Post#: 2911--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 14, 2024, 7:04 am
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I personally don’t attach much weight to Jennings’ recollection;
he uses terms of slight uncertainty “as far as he has any
recollection “ but more importantly the key was described in
1891 as being brass, so Jennings claiming, from hesitant memory
10 years later, that it wasn’t - is not enough.
-Pete-
This is from the:
New York Sun
April 25, 1891
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/UTtKgFL.jpg
....and the 26th:
New York Sun
April 26th, 1891
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HTML https://i.imgur.com/za6GzGa.jpg
Thanks for bringing up the 1891 references.
By the way, this was also in the New York Sun on the 25th, page
one.
This description of C. Kniclo doesn't match the one Damon swore
to.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/H80HbAg.jpg
#Post#: 2912--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 14, 2024, 10:14 am
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Pete:
Once more, thanks for pointing out that there were references to
the key being brass....
I respect your position on Jennings as possibly being less
certain than we'd hope when he filed the affidavit.
However......let's look at this section of his affidavit. The
amount of detailed information, to me at least, does not
indicate uncertainty.
Besides, the remark, "As far as I can recollect.." is just a
figure of speech and quite possibly not a reflection of
uncertainty. At least to me.
That the brass key shown him, deponent, in the presence of Mr.
Robillard, counsel for the prisoner, so
far as he is aware, was never used in the hotel of which he was
then the proprietor; that Room 31 was on
the top floor; that as far as he has any recollection all the
rooms on that particular floor, at the time of
said murder, had iron keys with brass oblong tags attached: that
the keys on the other three floors of the
hotel were some of brass and some of iron: that all the keys had
brass tags- some round and scalloped,
some oblong, some may have even been square, but all the tags
varied from about an inch to an inch and
a half long, and from an inch to an inch and a half wide, and
that no tag was as small as the one on the key
now produced..
We suffer from not knowing who informed the NY Sun reporter that
the key was brass or if they even did.
Is it possible the reporter simply assume the key was brass? Not
a monumental mistake if he did.
As Jennings stated, on the other three floors (2-4), brass keys
were used for rooms on those floors.
#Post#: 2913--------------------------------------------------
Re: An Issue With Odell's Commutation Paper
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: August 14, 2024, 11:28 am
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True, it’s very detailed.
Jennings left the hotel 4-5 months after the murder. He did not
specifically handle the keys.
He claims no tag was as small as that, but the sketches in the
paper from 1891 show the key with a small tag?
The NY sun on the 25th claims to paraphrase an “alarm” that has
been sent out to police stations, containing the description of
brass so it seems to have been the source of the description?
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