DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
HTML https://carriebrown.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: 1901-1902
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2083--------------------------------------------------
A View From The Saloon
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 2, 2023, 7:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Within Damon's first affidavit, filed on May 20th, 1901...he
makes the following statement.
"to go in that locality alone. We went into a saloon on
Catherine Street, in the same hotel where the
murder had been committed and asked for a cigar. We sat down at
a table and compared the key that I had and the tag, with the
keys on the board. It was exactly the same style of key and
same style of tag: it was a small brass tag with the corners
clipped.
While sitting there a party came down and laid a key on the bar
and went out. We got up and called for a glass of beer and laid
the key which I had beside the other key and they were exactly
alike; the figures were the same size and shape and the shape of
the tag and key were the same. From being a practical printer
and being familiar with the figures, I am positive that the
stamped figures on the key and those on the key board were made
from the same dies."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is part of D.A. Eugene Philbin's return letter to Governor
Odell on June 21, 1901 concerning his assignment to determine
the authenticity of the key that Damon turned in which Ovide
Robillard showed to James Jennings, who immediately brushed it
off as not being the type used at the hotel for rooms on that
floor. Iron keys were and still are cheaper than brass keys.
Jennings, the man who was in charge of the hotel for 8 years,
knew what kind of keys were used and where they were used at the
hotel.
Jennings stated in his affidavit that fifth floor keys were made
of iron.
Philbin employed a pretty competent policeman in Det. Sgt.
McNaught. I found a couple of references to him around the turn
of the 20th century.
" In order to trace and verify, if possible, the genuineness of
said key, I cause an investigation to be made of the premises,
formerly known as the East River Hotel, the house in which the
old woman known as 'Shakespeare' was found murdered on April 24,
1891. This investigation was conducted by Detective Sergeant
McNaught, of the Central Office, at present on special duty in
the District Attorney's office, and he reports in substance as
follows:
That he diligently followed out my instructions and
ascertained that not a vestige of the old house as it existed at
the time of the murder--save the walls--in now left. That some
few months after the tragedy occurred the then proprietor--Mr.
James Jennings-- retired from the hotel business and moved away;
that the place was then closed and remained closed for about
three years; that while it was thus closed, a fire occurred in
the place which did considerable damage interiorly; that the
inside of the house was afterward changed and altered into a
tenement house; that it is occupied as such at the present time,
with a bar-room on the ground floor and several rooms "for
gentlemen only", evidently reserved to meet the requirements of
Raines Law.
In the renovation of the place about five years ago, the rooms
that existed when the place was run as a hotel were ripped out
(Note: that would be during 1896), the locks and keys being
disposed of at the time with the other debris of the place and
carried away, nobody knowing what became of them."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a problem and yet perhaps a solution to the seemingly
innocuous remark Damon made in May 1901 which went unchallenged.
1. Damon and Brennan, in their rehearsed affidavits, state the
same thing about being able to see a board with keys from where
they were sitting in the saloon.
From the saloon, which at the time in 1891 was down a flight of
stairs in the basement of the hotel, neither man could see the
board with keys since that was on the ground floor behind the
front desk. No hotel, even the East River Hotel, would have
multiple places for hanging keys. It's as simple as that.
Therefore, this is just one more falsehood found in the Damon
story.
When I stated the affidavits were rehearsed, consider that
obvious fact that Brennan saw Damon every working day since they
worked together, employee and employer.
It's not only unlikely, it's impossible to not believe that the
two men wouldn't sit down and discuss the documents they'd be
submitting to the DA's Office. Their two stories had to connect.
lest they be scrutinized to the extent that Damon would not
desire. In their case, the affidavits appear as if they were
scripted.
However.......
If Damon and Brennan had gone to the hotel after the fire in the
latter part of the 1890s and after it had been renovated to some
degree and especially after the bar room was now on the ground
floor and not down in the basement.....then, it would be
possible for Damon and Brennan and anyone else to see the board
with keys from a table on the same floor as the bar room was
situated.
Any comments?
#Post#: 2085--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: September 3, 2023, 8:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Hi Howard
I have no problem with Damon’s story of going to the hotel and
examining the keys.
I notice in the trial, there are references to the keys being in
custody of the saloon keeper:
“ I waited until the Captain could get the keys from the saloon
keeper.”
I think Eddie Fitzgerald is tending bar and he’s the one that
gives Miniter the key to room 31 to give to Brown. So I’m not
sure how you know for certain that the board with keys was near
the desk in the hall?
#Post#: 2088--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: September 3, 2023, 12:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If the fifth floor keys were made of iron as Jennings said
couldn’t it have been the case that when Damon and Brennan made
their visit all of the fifth floor rooms were occupied? Meaning
that there were no fifth floor keys for them to see?
#Post#: 2090--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 3, 2023, 12:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If the fifth floor keys were made of iron as Jennings said
couldn’t it have been the case that when Damon and Brennan made
their visit all of the fifth floor rooms were occupied? Meaning
that there were no fifth floor keys for them to see?
Which means if no iron keys such as those on the fifth floor
were exclusively made of, then why did he show up in 1901 with a
brass one found in use on other floors of the hotel?
-Mike Banks-
----------------------------------------------
What I believe happened here Mike is this and it's actually
pretty simple:
1. Assuming for a minute that Damon and Brennan did go to the
hotel and setting aside the ridiculous statement that they could
see the board with keys from their position in the
basement......then Damon or Brennan saw a key that supposedly
matched the one that the farmhand had left back in Cranford.
The problem with Damon and Brennan's story is that the key that
they saw was made of brass. Damon's farmhand's key was brass.
Voila ! They matched! But the fact was is that they didn't use
brass keys on the fifth floor.
2. If Damon had not gone to the hotel, he just guessed that the
hotel used brass keys and made one up himself and turned that in
1901, when no one other than the alert Jennings would notice the
problem. That the problem was overlooked by Robillard and his
French associates can be understood. Why blow a great chance to
get Ali out of prison with something tangible like a key,
because that's the ONLY way the pardon campaigns would succeed,
even if the key had been rejected as authentic by the person
most familiar with the keys in usage back in 1891, James
Jennings ?
It makes sense that DA Philbin didn't lose sleep over the
problem because it was actually up to Odell to release or deny
the pardon. His report, compiled by Det. Sgt. McNaught, clearly
stated that the hotel had had a fire but long after the murder
and after Jennings had left it as proprietor. His letter to
Odell in June 1901 doesn't indicate one way or the other whether
he believed in the authenticity of the key but he does refer to
what Damon presented as, "alleged evidence".
There's no alternative, Mike.
#Post#: 2092--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 3, 2023, 1:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Pete:
Just noticed your post....
I have no problem with Damon’s story of going to the hotel and
examining the keys.
I notice in the trial, there are references to the keys being in
custody of the saloon keeper:
“ I waited until the Captain could get the keys from the saloon
keeper.”
I think Eddie Fitzgerald is tending bar and he’s the one that
gives Miniter the key to room 31 to give to Brown. So I’m not
sure how you know for certain that the board with keys was near
the desk in the hall?
Pete...before we go any further, at the Coroner's Inquest,
Fitzgerald said he 'chucked' ( threw) keys (plural) to Miniter
to open the door to Water Street not to give a room key to Brown
and C. Kniclo.
Double check, if you would, the "I waited until the Captain
could get the keys from the saloon keeper.”....and see if that
isn't, more or less, the same thing that Fitzgerald did on the
night of the 23rd with Miniter. I don't recall this comment
from the trial that you posted.
One other concern I have with Damon's saloon story is that
neither Damon or Brennan mention having had to walk down steps
to get to it.
This is why I mentioned that in the late 1890s, no one would
have go down stairs or steps as the saloon was now on the ground
floor, not the basement.
.
#Post#: 2093--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 3, 2023, 1:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Here's the Coroner's Inquest comment by Fitzy and the keys
He wouldn't toss individual keys to Miniter. He 'chucked' the
keys on a keyring:
The side door on Water Street was closed at the time, if you
recall, Brown or C. Kniclo had to ring the bell for entry.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/DaV3rpg.jpg
#Post#: 2094--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: September 3, 2023, 3:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Howard Brown link ---
>
> Pete:
>
> Just noticed your post....
>
> I have no problem with Damon’s story of going to the hotel and
examining the keys.
>
> I notice in the trial, there are references to the keys being
in custody of the saloon keeper:
>
> “ I waited until the Captain could get the keys from the
saloon keeper.”
>
> I think Eddie Fitzgerald is tending bar and he’s the one that
gives Miniter the key to room 31 to give to Brown. So I’m not
sure how you know for certain that the board with keys was near
the desk in the hall?
>
> Pete...before we go any further, at the Coroner's Inquest,
Fitzgerald said he 'chucked' ( threw) keys to Miniter to open
the door to Water Street not to give to Brown and C. Kniclo.
>
> Double check, if you would, the "I waited until the Captain
could get the keys from the saloon keeper.”....and see if that
isn't, more or less, the same thing that Fitzgerald did on the
night of the 23rd with Miniter. I don't recall this comment
from the trial that you posted.
>
> One other concern I have with Damon's saloon story is that
neither Damon or Brennan mention having had to walk down steps
to get to it.
> This is why I mentioned that in the late 1890s, no one would
have go down stairs or steps as the saloon was now on the ground
floor, not the basement.
>
>
> .
>
--- End Quote ---
You’re right, Miniter’s comments about getting the keys from
Eddie was for the locked outside door. The key 31 she doesn’t
state where she got it from.
The remark about getting the keys from the saloon keeper is from
Coroner Louis Schultze's’ testimony:
“Q. When you got to the scene of the crime did you go upstairs
immediately?
A. Well, after about two minutes, two or three minutes. I waited
until the Captain ( O'Connor) could get the keys from the saloon
keeper.”
#Post#: 2095--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 3, 2023, 3:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for double checking, Pete.
#Post#: 2097--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: September 5, 2023, 1:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So where were the room keys normally?
You say they were only in the hall - wasn’t the hall unguarded
at various times throughout the night?
Guests were supposed to leave their keys on the desk in the hall
when they left.
Dekle writes: “Miniter left the two
standing at the foot of the stairwell as she opened the interior
door into
the barroom. Miniter got the key to room 31, a candle, and a
candlestick,
and returned to the stairwell.“
Seems he thinks she had to go into the barroom to get the
roomkey?
#Post#: 2098--------------------------------------------------
Re: A View From The Saloon
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: September 5, 2023, 2:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
1- So where were the room keys normally?
2- You say they were only in the hall - wasn’t the hall
unguarded at various times throughout the night?
3- Guests were supposed to leave their keys on the desk in
the hall when they left.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At the front desk. I don't recall ever saying they left them in
the hall, Pete.
Unless a tenant was ready to leave the hotel at the same time a
hotel employee was heading upstairs, it would be expected that
the tenant would leave the key at the front desk OR in the room
they had rented.
As a hypothetical example. Mike Banks is ready to leave the
hotel after three days of unfathomable debauchery. He sees
Howard The Bartender on his way upstairs. He asks Howard to take
his key with him as he, Banksy, is on the way out. Howard takes
the key and hangs it up on the board behind the front desk on
his trip upstairs. If keys were situated in a place, like a
hallway, that everyone and his brother could access them without
having paid for a room, then that would have been the height of
stupidity in a neighborhood like Water Street.
Of course, late at night, between 10 p.m. and midnight, people
were required to push a buzzer on the Water Street side of the
building to gain access to rent a room. This is what happened
with Miniter when Brown and C.Kniclo arrived, the same procedure
when Ali came to the hotel an hour later around midnight when
Fitzgerald let him in.
Damon and his loyal employee didn't go late at night. They,
allegedly, went during the morning hours. Someone from the hotel
would be in close proximity to the board with the keys behind
the front desk during the day up until late at night when access
was restricted to the rooms upstairs to those who already had
keys.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 3
DIR Next Page