DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
HTML https://carriebrown.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: 1901-1902
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2044--------------------------------------------------
John A. Lee
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 14, 2023, 9:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I'll transfer the recent findings Kattrup shared to this thread
and eventually remove the 'Well-Known Contractor Was A Hardware
Clerk' by Wednesday.
I'm leaving the latter thread up until then so people who may
read what I posted on Facebook to take a look at that thread
before it's a goner.
Total transparency is our mission. Mistakes made will be
mistakes corrected.
John A. Lee, the Cranford Contractor, did exist. Kattrup
located several items of interest which I'll add now.
#Post#: 2046--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 14, 2023, 10:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
From Kattrup:
Howard, I have to say I’m seeing quite a few hits on John A Lee
of Cranford being in charge of bids for aqueduct contracts, in
lawsuits about lots and properties etc.
Just cursory, as I ‘m on my phone, but he doesn’t look like a
clerk that sells hammers…
In 1887 he was awarded contract for construction of a part of
the Croton Aqueduct, being the lowest bidder.
In 1902 there’s a John A Lee as Plumbing inspector in NY,
earning 1500$ a year.
He gets a lot of mentions, probably enough to be considered a
well-known contractor?
to me it looks like the papers mistook John R for John A.
He worked for a company called O’Brien and Clark, they won
contracts for other parts of the aqueduct.
He seems to have been a plumber, was elected vice president of
the NY Plumbers’ association, and later inspector of various
plumbing-like offices, it seems.
From Me:
First of all, thank you for this extraordinary find, Kattrup !!!
Well done!
You can see how the mix-up occurred, considering the only John
A. Lee we could find in Cranford was the hardware store clerk.
The signatures side by side
I'm not a graphologist, but there are some dissimilarities. One
noticeable similarity is that 'a', his middle initial.
HTML https://i.imgur.com/k9TjIId.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/eIXcoFu.jpg
An extraordinary tale, Howard.
I’m not sure what would have prevented the real Lee to speak up
after all the papers wrote about him in connection with the
case?
I mean, you say the affidavits were not available but the papers
identified the real Lee?
Damon or Lee was the person who initiated any conversation. No
one other than Damon and Lee and perhaps Robillard knew that
John A. Lee would file an affidavit.
The content of an affidavit is seldom published in a newspaper.
Any identification of John A. Lee came from Damon when Damon was
approached about his story.
The May 23rd, 1901 Washington Times article contains the gist of
what Damon's affidavit stated but it is definitely not the
affidavit's content (May 20th affidavit) in its entirety
The papers, it had been presumed, were referring to John R. Lee,
who was a well-known contractor. We tried in vain to locate
articles with contracting and John A. Lee together with no
success.
Katt....I called Nina at work and told her about this. She says
she's going to scour that directory to see where the John A. Lee
you found lived in 1891.
Again, nice work !!!
From Kattrup:
Thank you Howard. My first post regarding the “real” Lee was
made before I started looking for John A Lee.
I have John A Lee in 1899 at 109 Forest Avenue, Cranford. His
attorney JT Hurd at 206 Broadway.
I haven’t found his middle name yet.
In NY Times 21-04-1901 he is selling a house, 13 rooms and large
grounds. Probably Forest Avenue?
From Me:
Pete:
This is his crib today....nice looking joint
HTML https://i.imgur.com/zJYZFNd.jpg
Addition photos of the interior
HTML https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/109-Forest-Ave_Cranford_NJ_07016_M54053-31360
I just got back from taking down the thread I placed on Facebook
and crediting you with what you found.
Needless to say. I'm glad you did. So far, every time a mistake
has been made on this site or in our research, its been handled
without any problem and resolved immediately upon discovering
the facts.
Now, it's far more acceptable to envision John A. Lee chatting
it up with attorneys. That's also a good thing to have been
cleared up.
I will admit, that although my aim is to always get at the facts
of this case even if it means getting egg on my face once in a
while as I'm doing so and not having an agenda one way or the
other. I sort of enjoyed the notion of a hardware clerk posing
as John R. Lee. Of that, I'm guilty.
Now, its down to those other things Damon claimed or brought
out..... about the bar room key board, the hired hand's
features, and that brass key.
From Kattrup:
I understand completely Howard. No problem having an
entertaining theory as long as one is willing to adjust it to
the facts and circumstances.
If you and Nina found a John A Lee also on Forest Avenue, that
seems like too much of a coincidence. If it’s not the same guy,
perhaps the clerk you found is John A Lee Junior?
From Me:
Pete:
I'm sure Nina's going to take a further look tonight and in
fact, your suggestion may be the answer to all of this.
I admit I didn't think of that. It could have been Lee's son.
Nina didn't see the 'Jr', otherwise she would have definitely
mentioned it to me.
#Post#: 2047--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 14, 2023, 11:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
In John A. Lee's affidavit, there is no mention of this incident
and neither is there anything in Damon's four self-serving
submissions.
We never find out who the attorney was....supposedly one of the
trial lawyers on the prosecution side....but Damon never lets us
know.
Now that we know there was a John A. Lee, thanks to Kattrup,
this brings up a couple of interesting ideas.
This is an excerpt from a Washington Times article from May 23,
1901..published three days after Damon's first affidavit :
HTML https://i.imgur.com/9WSnqd9.jpg
For one thing, consider this excerpt from John A. Lee's
affidavit, dated May 31st(?) 1901 several days after Damon filed
his first of four :
I advised Mr. Damon to keep the matter quiet, as I did not
believe that Frenchy could be convicted; moreover knowing the
dangerous character of this man in question, I was afraid for
the safety of my friend, Mr. Damon, and the safety of someone of
his family, should the police fail to catch him.
Sort of speaks volumes about Lee and Damon that they felt it was
better that C. Kniclo-as-Farmhand was still out there roaming
free. Odd that Lee didn't seem to fear the at-large maniac who
murdered Carrie Brown.
Damon, despite being a businessman since the end of the Civil
War ( he dealt in bags ), depends on someone else for his advice
in this circumstance.
Another thing.....look at this from the above :
Moreover knowing the dangerous character of this man in
question
Lee is stating this based on what he had read in the papers
about Brown's murderer and of course, he's correct. Anyone that
could kill and then mutilate, post-mortem, is very unsavory and
someone any responsible citizen with a family would want off the
streets and in custody as soon as possible. But....not these
two peas in a pod.
On the other hand, since his affidavit and Damon's dovetail each
other as if scripted, maybe Lee was parroting what Damon said in
his affidavit about the nature of the farm hand, earlier.
It's neither here nor there anymore, but these two morally
reprehensible characters deserved each other. Shame that Damon
didn't have a friend who had a backbone and had asked him or her
for advice.
Again...and I'll repeat it for the umpteenth time....it would
have required ZERO effort to take the key to the authorities;
requesting that Damon's name be kept out of the papers or that
the key was even found; the DA in Manhattan would have been
happy to comply as it would have saved the City a ton of money
by postponing a trial and probably resulted with the man who
Damon and Lee didn't think would be convicted being released and
maybe never spending ten years of his life in prison. Only when
the trial was underway and Formad got involved in late June (
26th) did the material under Ali's nails become identified by
his research. Had Ali been released, that research would have
never been undertaken.....again a fact wholly dependent on
whether Damon came out earlier.
I'm not bringing up the issue of whether Ali was or wasn't
guilty. I can see why he was convicted and his guilt or
innocence isn't the question at the moment.
#Post#: 2049--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 16, 2023, 4:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I meant to mention this yesterday.
Nina, inspired by what Kattrup found, has been digging into
Lee's background more extensively than before.
Lee, for whatever reason, IS listed as a hardware store
clerk/salesman in the census. Why he would do so is being looked
into.
#Post#: 2051--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 16, 2023, 6:08 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I advised Mr. Damon to keep the matter quiet, as I did not
believe that Frenchy could be convicted; moreover knowing the
dangerous character of this man in question, I was afraid for
the safety of my friend, Mr. Damon, and the safety of someone of
his family, should the police fail to catch him.
-John A. Lee, his affidavit-
How could the police hope to catch him since they already had a
man in custody with significant circumstantial evidence who
ain't getting out of jail anytime soon and these two 'men' who
had information which could clear someone they, by their own
sworn testimonies, believed to be 100 percent innocent?
How could the self-appointed judges and jurors, Damon and Lee,
be so certain that the hired hand wouldn't come back to 3
Madison Avenue for his alleged incriminating evidence....the
shirt and the key?
How could Damon, whose own comments on the hired hand indicate a
prior distrust and wariness of the nature of the hired hand, go
to work every day and be satisfied that the man wouldn't come
back and rob him? Remember, Damon stated that the hired hand
left but not with any accumulated back pay due to him.
Why did Damon keep him on in the first place, based on what he
says about the nature of the hired hand....while he's off in
Manhattan and has three kids and a wife at home? Would you keep
him on?
Why didn't he give him his walking papers and tell the hired
hand he didn't need him anymore as soon as he got those bad
vibes he swore to have had in his affidavit?
Is, after re-considering what Lee says above, Lee actually
stating that he, himself, was aware of the nature of the hired
hand and not making that remark relative to the descriptions of
how Brown was murdered? As if Lee knew the hired hand had a
somewhat shady, sullen, and potentially violent nature?
The hired hand left Damon's employ. However, what if the hired
hand decided to stick around the safe and secure suburb of
Cranford and found a job in town, even using Damon as a
reference ( just kiddin') ...and one day just happened to run
into Damon in town ?
#Post#: 2052--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: Michael Banks
Date: August 16, 2023, 12:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Excellent research by all. Done with complete integrity and
fairness.
#Post#: 2053--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 16, 2023, 2:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, Mike.....
In 1902 there's John A Lee as Plumbing inspector in NY, earning
1500$ a year.
-Kattrup-
Nina learned today that the John A. Lee, above, was a different
man.
Nina is still digging....
#Post#: 2054--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: August 16, 2023, 2:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
From Kattrup:
I understand completely Howard. No problem having an
entertaining theory as long as one is willing to adjust it to
the facts and circumstances.
If you and Nina found a John A Lee also on Forest Avenue, that
seems like too much of a coincidence. If it’s not the same guy,
perhaps the clerk you found is John A Lee Junior?
From Me:
Pete:
I'm sure Nina's going to take a further look tonight and in
fact, your suggestion may be the answer to all of this.
I admit I didn't think of that. It could have been Lee's son.
Nina didn't see the 'Jr', otherwise she would have definitely
mentioned it to me.
I forgot to post this earlier:
There was no John A. Lee, Jr. because John A. Lee did not have
any children.
But the contractor fellow that Pete located IS the same John
A.Lee listed as a clerk on the census.........
#Post#: 2055--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: August 17, 2023, 3:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Howard
I saw him as Clerk on the 1900-census, I think? But I haven’t
found anything about the hardware store you mention.
Sorry for bringing the NY-guy into it, was just a quick
assumption that he left Cranford around 1901 and became an
inspector of plumbing-related activities. Seemed to fit in a
cursory search :)
Would be nice to know what the A stood for.
Looking forward to Nina finding his picture :)
#Post#: 2056--------------------------------------------------
Re: John A. Lee
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: August 17, 2023, 3:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, I see now the census says “Clerk” with “Hardware” added
beneath.
John A Lee, born august 1852 in NY, father born NY, mother born
Maine.
Married ca. 1880 to Mary, whose middle initial is a scrawl but
probably B, maybe R or K. She's born January 1858 in NJ.
*****************************************************
Page 1 of 6
DIR Next Page