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Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
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#Post#: 1028--------------------------------------------------
Five Questions With :
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: January 12, 2023, 1:37 pm
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As an exercise, I thought the members of the boards might
consider putting together Five Questions for the rest of us to
answer. You can direct the questions to a particular person, but
it might work better if the questions were not aimed
specifically at one person.
Sound good ? Then please add your five questions on this thread
at your convenience.
Thanks !
P.S. If you have more than five, that works
too....................
#Post#: 1037--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: January 13, 2023, 3:02 am
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1. what were the differences in the newspapers' interest in
following up on the case? e.g. some papers may have had a more
"social justice" perspective, cater more to a specific segment.
The journalists from The Sun supplied most of the affidavits -
was the Sun also more active than other papers in reporting
earlier pardon attempts?
2. How did the police and DA's office react to the release of
Ali? In 1891, the prosecution would have considered its case
exemplary, I would think, with the fingernail science being
state of the art. How did they feel 10 years later?
3. What was the killer attempting to do or what did the killer
want from cutting Carrie Brown? The cuts seem (to me) random or
planless
4. Why did the killer cover her face/head?
Sorry, only got 4 at the moment
#Post#: 1038--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: January 13, 2023, 7:25 am
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1. what were the differences in the newspapers' interest in
following up on the case? e.g. some papers may have had a more
"social justice" perspective, cater more to a specific segment.
The journalists from The Sun supplied most of the affidavits -
was the Sun also more active than other papers in reporting
earlier pardon attempts?
2. How did the police and DA's office react to the release of
Ali? In 1891, the prosecution would have considered its case
exemplary, I would think, with the fingernail science being
state of the art. How did they feel 10 years later?
3. What was the killer attempting to do or what did the killer
want from cutting Carrie Brown? The cuts seem (to me) random or
planless
4. Why did the killer cover her face/head?
1. I don't detect any disparity between the papers during the
Aftermath of the verdict in the quantity of coverage regarding
the pardon campaigns.
2. None of the policemen involved with the case were in service
in 1901. Only Byrnes made any comments on the release of Ali,
the most elaborate being the NY Sun on April 24, 1902. He
maintained that the verdict was not unjust and other than that
it was up to the Governor whether Ali would be released. He
defended Frink for his evidence gathering.
Wellman discusses the trial in his two books ( 1924 and
1938 ) and not the release. None of the attorneys for the State
were still in the D.A.'s office.
3. Your opinion is as good as my mine on this one. Any time a
knife was used in a murder of a woman back in the late 1880's
and early 1890s, the knee jerk reaction ( press driven) was to
either think Jack The Ripper was at work or that the murder in
question was a copycat murder influenced by the Whitechapel
Murders.
When the first reports were issued regarding the marks on
her torso, the words 'cross' and/or 'x' were how the wounds were
described. This, however, doesn't mean that these wounds thus
described were made to represent a cross or an x. They could
have been intentional but then they may have just looked like
those two designs and by labeling them a cross and an x were the
only logical ways to describe them.
4. An unappreciated aspect of the murder. On the surface, we
might think Ali would be more likely to have done this as he was
very well acquainted with Brown if we presume he didn't want to
look at her while he was assaulting her.
He and Brown were known to be friends. Some say close
friends. Is the face covering a manifestation of guilt as to
what he was eventually going to do (use the knife on her) as she
was strangled first ? The head covering was done before the
mutilating. Was the use of the knife a back up plan to assure
she was dead ?
Why would a stranger such as C. Kniclo care about having to
look at her face while committing murder ?
On the other hand, what if the stranger didn't intend to use a
knife on her, originally ? The knifing only being a 'finishing
touch' ?
It's a complicated issue. Frenzied attacks are usually simple
affairs...but the head covering adds an element not commonly
found in crimes of this nature from what I've recalled reading
about similar crimes over the years.
Thanks for the questions, Pete. Much appreciated.
#Post#: 1363--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: guest5
Date: March 3, 2023, 5:45 pm
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--- Quote from: Kattrup link ---
>
> 3. What was the killer attempting to do or what did the killer
want from cutting Carrie Brown? The cuts seem (to me) random or
planless
>
--- End Quote ---
As we know, it's overkill, and to me that's when there's no
rational motive. It's just overdoing it.
But obviously I believe it was cold-blooded murder. That means
the mutilation was not out of anger or spite or anything like
that. It was part of a plan.
We have the suspects with equal forensic evidence against them.
What do you have left? Robbery gone wrong. It's a stupid move to
mutilate if that's the case, unless he was trying to rob organs.
She could have been declared to have died of a heart attack
without it. No one would be the wiser.
--- Quote ---
> A disorganized killer is prone to 'overkill' and will often
take a body part as a trophy (Victims of Violence, 2011b).
--- End Quote ---
HTML https://epublications.regis.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1240&context=theses
Again, organized/cold-blooded and overkill is mutually exclusive
unless there's a reason. It doesn't matter how many murders you
commit. You can see that from Jack the Ripper's first murder
right to his last.
#Post#: 1364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: March 3, 2023, 6:48 pm
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As it stands, we don't know what the reason was for the murder
How many murders were, are, and will continue to be committed
upon wives by husbands who planned out the crime in advance (
alibis, witnesses, etc) and yet feature overkill ( 30 stab
wounds, 5 bullets in the head, etc.) ? Organized with overkill.
Besides, I wasn't defining the murder by some clinician's
terminology. To me, it was a cold-blooded murder of a woman.
P.S. For all of Dahmer's 'organized' traits.....he brought the
heat on himself because of the stench in his apartment.
Not very organized, in my view.
For all we know, C. Kniclo and Brown may have been together
before...she ripped him off...he takes her to the hotel to enact
revenge.
Wouldn't be the first time it ever happened either.
#Post#: 1365--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: March 3, 2023, 7:16 pm
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We have the suspects with equal forensic evidence against them.
What do you have left? Robbery gone wrong. It's a stupid move to
mutilate if that's the case, unless he was trying to rob organs.
She could have been declared to have died of a heart attack
without it. No one would be the wiser.
How could she have been declared to have died by a heart attack
with cloth material wrapped so tightly around her head that
Schultze had to cut it off ? It wasn't a natural death, YF.
In addition, the mutilation may have served the purpose of
guaranteeing death in case the suffocation didn't do the trick.
#Post#: 1367--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: guest5
Date: March 4, 2023, 12:06 am
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The material around the face is just another bad move unless you
want to attract attention. What does a killer have to do to get
the label Attention-Getter?
Sorry. Attention-Seeker.
We know he was an Attention-Getter.
#Post#: 1368--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: March 4, 2023, 6:59 am
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The material around the face is just another bad move unless you
want to attract attention. What does a killer have to do to get
the label Attention-Getter?
The thing is, we don't know if he was even interested in
attracting attention.
The killer could have taken the chair and beaten her with it;
cut her throat ; whatever....all producing the same effect Any
of these methods of killing Brown could have undertaken, all
without the slightest thought or consideration of what anyone
else thought.
The 'labeling' of killers by people is often how they would
classify themselves if in the role of killer.
Could the killer have wanted to attract attention ? Certainly...
but how the hell would we know unless we asked him ?
#Post#: 1373--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: guest5
Date: March 4, 2023, 4:04 pm
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We already know who the suspect or suspects are. We know their
class, race, and general occupations. I can certainly relate to
a working class Mediterranean who's an immigrant like my father.
You can say I don't relate to Scandinavians or Nordics though
but I wouldn't bother asking them or Ali any "post-game"
questions. Obviously, if it's Ali, it's not likely a Ripper
copycatting motive for the mutilations. And we already saw him
getting angry and "violent".
#Post#: 1377--------------------------------------------------
Re: Five Questions With :
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: March 5, 2023, 6:34 am
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We already know who the suspect or suspects are. We know their
class, race, and general occupations. I can certainly relate to
a working class Mediterranean who's an immigrant like my father.
A lotta times I have to guess at what you're driving at, but
this time I'm lost.
Everyone in Canada and the US are immigrants or descendants of
immigrants except the aboriginal people and even they had to
hike their asses out of Asia at some point...so, um, what do you
mean ?
What do you mean when you say you can relate to Ali, who appears
to be the example of your working class Mediterranean ?
You can say I don't relate to Scandinavians or Nordics though
but I wouldn't bother asking them or Ali any "post-game"
questions. Obviously, if it's Ali, it's not likely a Ripper
copycatting motive for the mutilations. And we already saw him
getting angry and "violent".
I agree that if Ali was the killer, there was zero chance of him
committing the crime to emulate or infer the work of the
Whitechapel Murderer.
I also think the odds are not in favor of C. Kniclo committing a
murder like those in London, but IMO they're a little higher but
not for any ethnic-related reasons.
My 'reason' would be that Ali had already been in New York City
for 21 months, a pretty long cooling off period for the types of
crimes associated with the Whitechapel Murderer. He'd been in
the company of many women during this period of time and
contrary to the general modus operandi of serial killers, Carrie
Brown was far from being a stranger to him.
If Ali was her killer, there was either a robbery motive or a
personal motive...IMHO.
My 'reason' for C. Kniclo not being a copycat would be related
to the absence of a throat slashing. Far easier to dispatch
someone in that way than going through the rigamarole of
wrapping fabric around the victim's head in order to subdue
them. My 'reason' for placing the odds a little higher in his
'favor' of being either a copycat or the actual Whitechapel
Murderer is that he was a recent arrival to the New York area,
IF what Damon and Damon alone stated was true.
If C. Kniclo was her killer, there's an outside chance he had
run into her before. I don't think anyone is capable of coming
up with a motive for him killing her other than 'good
guesswork'. I don't see a personal motive, surely not a
personal relationship on the level Ali and Brown had.
....IMHO.
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