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Carrie Brown : Murder In The East River Hotel
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#Post#: 7528--------------------------------------------------
Through The Pockets Of A Dead & Naked Victim
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 2, 2026, 11:29 am
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Through The Pockets Of A Dead & Naked Victim
Recently, we were discussing the crime scene in room 31. It was
regarding the theory that Ali
only came into contact with her body and didn't murder her, and
this was brought up:
Her pockets were turned out, so someone searched through them,
and she didn't have the money
(50 cents or so) she would have gotten from C. Kniclo. To me
that sounds more like
Ali searching her, than Kniclo searching her after killing her.
We know she was naked ( see attachments) and that her wearing
apparel was in different places in the room:
New York Evening World
April 24, 1891
*************
The body was completely naked. A deep gash extended from the
lower part of the abdomen
upward to the breast, which disemboweled it completely.
In one corner of the room lay the woman's tattered red flannel
skirt and torn stockings.
Over the back of the chair hung her checked gingham waist and a
cheap shoddy mantle.
With this out of the way, let's look at what Judge Smyth was
quoted as saying in the New York Herald
in their July 4th edition:
"DESERVED WHAT HE GOT."
RECORDER SMYTH SAYS FRENCHY IS WITHOUT DOUBT A GUILTY MAN.
"Do you regard the verdict as a just one?" I put this question
to Recorder Smyth half an hour after the conclusion of the
trial.
"Indeed, yes, a very just one," was the Recorder's prompt reply.
"Was it in strict accordance with the evidence?"
The Recorder hesitated a moment, as though mentally reviewing
the case, and then replied:—
"I think I may venture to say that the evidence fully and
completely authorized the verdict.
I can also say that in my best judgment the evidence could not
have warranted a 'first degree' verdict.
Deliberation and premeditation—both essential to such a
finding—were certainly not proved in this case."
"But was the fact of murder itself proved against Frenchy?"
MUTILATED AFTER DEATH.
"Unquestionably. The man undoubtedly strangled his victim to
death with a view to robbery, as the evidence showed that the
woman's pockets were turned inside out when the body was found.
The mutilation, as conclusively proved on scientific testimony,
occurred after death, and was undoubtedly the result of the
murderer's frenzy
From Judge Smyth's reply and from trial testimony, we know
Carrie's pockets were turned inside out.
Her gingham waist coat would have had pockets. They served a
specific purpose: These were usually small single-welt pockets
positioned near the waist or chest, most commonly utilized as a
watch pocket to hold a lady's pocket watch or small essentials.
Waistcoats could have either one or two pockets.
Not being able to view her red flannel skirt, we don't know
whether it had a pocket.
The following is in my opinion a plausible recreation of what
happened that night.
* After C. Kniclo did his business with Carrie OR failing that,
he simply left without having sex with her. He leaves and does
not
lock the door. (1)
* Ali enters the unlocked room. Enabled by the ambient light, he
sees her in her bed, naked. He goes to the waistcoat and rifles
the pockets. Her sleep disturbed, she wakes up. Ali takes her
undergarment ( see attachment) and wraps it tightly around her
head. She is suffocated,
the coup de gras being the knife attack to her body afterward.
* He leaves the room and goes back to room 33. He leaves the
hotel, overcoat over his shoulders, arms not in the sleeves,
face
turned away from Fitzgerald's presence, and exits the hotel.
Comments welcome.......
(1)I'm not going to go into whether C. Kniclo took the key
because there's a 50/50 chance he left it. Ali could have
picked the key up and locked the door after HE left, or he could
have taken it and left the door unlocked.
I don't believe Ali was capable of planning a robbery after
having sex with her and then murdering her. I believe he
entered the room with the intention of robbery, culminating in
murder.
There is also a possibility that he did not know it was Carrie
in the room until after he saw her face in the ambient light.
#Post#: 7558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Through The Pockets Of A Dead & Naked Victim
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: October 7, 2026, 1:33 pm
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Certainly a plausible theory, Howard.
If he didn't have sex with her, and did not intend to either,
why was there no blood on his pants?
I mentioned earlier that I wished to go through the testimony
and check where exactly the blood on his clothes were.
As I recall, the blood on his socks, not underneath but on the
side. None on his pants. On his shirts, around the cuff and on
front, near the lapels.
Is the description of the blood on his clothes detailed enough
to hazard a guess how the blood came to be there?
He did not step on blood, but the socks being bloody on the side
seems to me to indicate that his hands had blood on them when he
took the socks on or off. Or perhaps it spilled or dropped onto
the sock, if he came in without shoes in order to be quiet.
I remember reading the description of the blood on the shirt and
thinking it was the same areas he'd have to touch in order to
put the shirt on - the cuffs and the front buttons.
Indicating again that his hands were bloody when he was putting
it on - or taking it off.
The blood on the sleeve was, I seem to recall, not a very large
amount.
If there was no blood on the pants (as I recall but perhaps I am
mistaken), how did he murder her and get blood on his socks, but
not his pants?
#Post#: 7560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Through The Pockets Of A Dead & Naked Victim
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 7, 2026, 2:57 pm
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If he didn't have sex with her and did not intend to either, why
was there no blood on his pants?
I can only answer that with a guess, Pete.
As I recall, the blood on his socks, not underneath but on the
side. None on his pants. On his shirts, around the cuff and on
front, near the lapels.
I recently came across a reference to the socks and it stated
the bloodstain was on the heel. I'll go look for it shortly. I
wanted to mention it now
in case I might forget.
Regarding the shirt, McLaughlin's remarks at the trial in the
July 1st, NY Evening World:
Capt. McLaughlin said that the stain of blood on the wristband
of Frenchy's old flannel shirt was a faded one half an inch wide
and two inches long.
That on the back looked as if a hand had smeared it.
Assistant District-Attorney Charles Simms stood up with his back
to the jury, and Mr. House and the Captain used him for a model
to illustrate the location of the bright red stain on Frenchy's
shirt.
The Captain indicated with his hand that the stain began at the
very centre of the back, just between the shoulder blades, and
extended to the right three or four inches.
The prosecution has sworn witnesses who testified that Carrie
Brown was dead before she was carved and mangled, and of course
could not have put a bloody hand on Frenchy after death.
This stain was at a point where Frenchy could not reach it
himself.
How did that bloodstain get there?
#Post#: 7565--------------------------------------------------
Re: Through The Pockets Of A Dead & Naked Victim
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 7, 2026, 3:56 pm
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Dr. Edson on the location of her blood............
New York Evening World
April 30, 1891
***********
"Myself and some other physicians were called into the case on
Monday by Inspector Byrnes as well as District Attorney Nicoll.
We physicians made an analysis of the blood stains on the
bedding and hallway and found corpuscles of human blood.
"Then we examined the person of the prisoner and found that
there were blood marks on his stockings, hair, and front and
back of his cheviot shirt—which was human blood.
Inspector Byrnes on the location of her blood......
New York Evening World
May 1, 1891
***********
“When Frenchy was arrested and brought to the station-house he
had on no underclothing. He wore a coarse shirt, a pair of
trousers and a pair of socks. He was examined, and the lower
part of his shirt was found to be covered with blood in front.
It was about where the blood would strike had he stood over the
woman by the side of the bed.
“There was a blood mark on the back of the neck of the shirt,
just such a mark as would be made by the woman if she had thrown
up her hand and seized him while she was struggling in a death
grapple. There was a splash of blood on the waistband of the
shirt, and it was plain that an attempt had been made to wash it
off.
“There were blood stains on one of his socks. On the outside
jamb of the door of room 31, the room that Frenchy had been
assigned to, there were blood marks that looked as though the
door had been pushed open with just the tips of bloody fingers.”
#Post#: 7566--------------------------------------------------
Re: Through The Pockets Of A Dead & Naked Victim
DIR By: Kattrup
Date: October 7, 2026, 4:06 pm
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So an explanation for the blood on the back of the shirt could
that he had taken the shirt of and it touched some of the blood?
If he took it off to have sex with her for instance. He leaves
it on the floor and after he kills her, blood spills onto it.
#Post#: 7567--------------------------------------------------
Re: Through The Pockets Of A Dead & Naked Victim
DIR By: HowBrown1953
Date: October 7, 2026, 4:15 pm
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Pete:
I think a re-reading of Jenkins ' inquest testimony might be
worthwhile. I'll try to get at it tomorrow.
I think he suggested that the killer stabbed her while she was
not quite dead or something like that.
So an explanation for the blood on the back of the shirt could
that he had taken the shirt of and it touched some of the blood?
If he took it off to have sex with her for instance. He leaves
it on the floor and after he kills her, blood spills onto it.
That's possible, Pete.
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