DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Break the Matrix
HTML https://breakthematrix.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Cranial Restructuring
*****************************************************
#Post#: 1941--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)
DIR By: Progress
Date: April 20, 2017, 8:22 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: slamo28 link ---
>
> If the tongue was enough to cause maxillary protraction then
why is Mike Mew focusing all his efforts on perfecting
facepulling headgear?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
As he has often said, adopting and maintaining proper posterior
tongue posture is extremely difficult without first having
adequate space in the mouth. Facepulling gives a good kickstart
for those whose structure is too recessed to do anything else.
#Post#: 1954--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)
DIR By: slamo28
Date: April 21, 2017, 10:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Progress link ---
>
> [quote author=slamo28 link=topic=254.msg1933#msg1933
date=1492564294]
> If the tongue was enough to cause maxillary protraction then
why is Mike Mew focusing all his efforts on perfecting
facepulling headgear?
>
>
--- End Quote ---
As he has often said, adopting and maintaining proper posterior
tongue posture is extremely difficult without first having
adequate space in the mouth. Facepulling gives a good kickstart
for those whose structure is too recessed to do anything else.
[/quote]
That's what the DNA appliance and ALF appliance is for. Forcing
those walls open so the back tongue can come up. But i'm sure
there are extreme cases of repressiveness where facepulling is
needed. Either way i believe that change we are all looking for
lies in some sort of protraction device. The tongue will widen
palate and bring lower jaw forward but not the maxilla as a
whole.
#Post#: 1957--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)
DIR By: Progress
Date: April 22, 2017, 10:02 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: slamo28 link ---
>
> change we are all looking for lies in some sort of protraction
device. The tongue will widen palate and bring lower jaw forward
but not the maxilla as a whole.
>
--- End Quote ---
What makes you think that? You have not given any reasons as to
why facepulling would be more effective than mewing in bringing
the maxilla forward. From my point of view the difference is
inisignificant, since the forces that are generated are almost
identical in both mewing and facepulling. If you think I'm
wrong, please tell my why.
I feel like one of us doesn't have a clue what they're talking
about here. You say that while the tongue can widen the palate
and bring the mandible forward, it won't bring the maxilla
forward. This axiom has two problems:
1. In order to bring the mandible forward, the maxilla has to
come forward too, because the location of the bite is directly
determined by the position of the upper jaw / maxilla and the
teeth attached to it.
2. The act of palatal expansion itself expands the maxilla
forward through the suture, which makes your statement about the
tongue being able to expand the palate but not induce forward
growth contradictory.
#Post#: 1959--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)
DIR By: slamo28
Date: April 22, 2017, 2:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Progress link ---
>
>
>
> 1. In order to bring the mandible forward, the maxilla has to
come forward too, because the location of the bite is directly
determined by the position of the upper jaw / maxilla and the
teeth attached to it.
>
> 2. The act of palatal expansion itself expands the maxilla
forward through the suture, which makes your statement about the
tongue being able to expand the palate but not induce forward
growth contradictory.
>
--- End Quote ---
1. I'm proposing that the palate and the maxilla are two
separate entities; the palate simply being the roof of the
mouth, and the maxilla being the mid face bone that is much less
affected by palatal expansion than we think. So when lower jaw
has come forward its because the palate has grown, but not the
maxilla.
2. I do not think that palatal expansion causes forward growth
through any suture because I feel the palate is too
impressionable, too malleable. I think the palate absorbs all
tongue forces, leaving none for the maxilla as a whole. Which is
why i feel a protraction device is necessary because it can
induce that extra long term force that doesn't get absorbed by
the palate.
#Post#: 1962--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)
DIR By: Progress
Date: April 22, 2017, 3:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: slamo28 link ---
>
>
> 1. I'm proposing that the palate and the maxilla are two
separate entities; the palate simply being the roof of the
mouth, and the maxilla being the mid face bone that is much less
affected by palatal expansion than we think. So when lower jaw
has come forward its because the palate has grown, but not the
maxilla.
>
>
> 2. I do not think that palatal expansion causes forward growth
through any suture because I feel the palate is too
impressionable, too malleable. I think the palate absorbs all
tongue forces, leaving none for the maxilla as a whole. Which is
why i feel a protraction device is necessary because it can
induce that extra long term force that doesn't get absorbed by
the palate.
>
--- End Quote ---
1. On what grounds are you proposing that? On Google in every
image of the skull where maxilla is highlighted, the highlighted
area includes the palate. This is what Wikipedia says about the
maxilla:
--- Quote ---
> The maxilla in animals is the upper jawbone formed from the
fusion of two maxillary bones. The upper jaw includes the
frontal portion of the palate of the mouth.
--- End Quote ---
Palate is part of the maxilla bone, so if palate grows, maxilla
grows, because palate is the only link between the two halves of
the maxilla:
HTML https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Maxilla_close-up_animation.gif/240px-Maxilla_close-up_animation.gif
Growth through the suture means the whole bone will widen. And
because the maxilla is attached to and kept in place by the
other bones of the skull (mainly by the sphenoid, zygomatic and
frontal bone), expansion through the suture will inevitably tip
the maxilla upwards and forwards as the two halves open wider,
in the same motion a pair of doors does, to make room for the
new bone mass around the mid-palatal suture
Of course, "growth" is a very vague term and we may be talking
about a bit different things (remodelling vs expansion vs
structural movement). I guess growth could also happen through
the sutures between maxilla & zygomatic bones (and all the other
bones the maxilla is attached to).
2. I see. Yet, assuming that you're right about palate being
malleable enough to fully absorb the forces from the tongue,
what makes you believe any kind of protraction device attached
to the palate would circumverent this problem? Changing the
medium through which the force against maxilla is delivered does
not suddenly make the palate any less absorbing of those forces.
Do I make sense?
#Post#: 1963--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sleeping on the Back without Pillows (for Crane)
DIR By: slamo28
Date: April 22, 2017, 5:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Progress link ---
>
>
>
> 2. I see. Yet, assuming that you're right about palate being
malleable enough to fully absorb the forces from the tongue,
what makes you believe any kind of protraction device attached
to the palate would circumverent this problem? Changing the
medium through which the force against maxilla is delivered does
not suddenly make the palate any less absorbing of those forces.
Do I make sense?
>
--- End Quote ---
YES this is the conundrum which perplexes me as well. Like
assuming we are anchoring the retainer at the back teeth, won't
that move teeth and not maxilla? Or maybe the maxilla as a whole
i don't know!
Doesn't this look like it would move the maxilla forward, in a
different way than how the tongue simply growths the roof the of
the mouth?
HTML https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1d/17/3a/1d173a3ba4bee2570bf82266607c58a9.jpg
Also
This guy at facepulling.com tried to address the issue by making
this type of oral appliance.
[img]
HTML https://i2.wp.com/www.facepulling.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/intraoral_appliance.jpg?w=713[/img]
*****************************************************
Page 2 of 2
DIR Previous Page