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#Post#: 1858--------------------------------------------------
Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 20 wi
DIR By: MaxillaMaximum
Date: April 2, 2017, 7:14 am
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Here it goes.
I asked my orthodontist if it is possible to use palate
expanders to increase the width of maxilla.
She said that it can push teeth outwards, but not actually
expand the palate bone (maxilla) as it has been fused after age
of 20 or so.
It literally has to be sawn open along the seams into 6 chunks
or so and then a palate expander should be used to restructure
and widen the narrow maxilla.
Just wanted to inform you guys of this.
I'm not sure about the face pulling. Maybe that would be
possible. But that is what she said about the maxilla widening
after the bones have fused.
#Post#: 1863--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: Progress
Date: April 2, 2017, 8:54 am
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Well it must be true if an orthodontist said it.
HTML https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4185298/
--- Quote ---
> The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal suture
vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander observed
fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging from 15 to
19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27, 32, 54,
and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of fusion
of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability in the
developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture is not
related directly to chronologic age, particularly in young
adults.
--- End Quote ---
Seems like a hit or a miss. Some adults may achieve expansion
with non-invasive procedures, while others won't.
#Post#: 1867--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: MeltedFace
Date: April 2, 2017, 12:04 pm
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Orthotropics and natural Orthodontics OFTEN do palette expansion
without surgery for adults. Find a different person who
understands this procedure please - its worth your time.
#Post#: 1868--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: TheNo0n3
Date: April 2, 2017, 1:32 pm
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--- Quote from: MeltedFace link ---
>
> Orthotropics and natural Orthodontics OFTEN do palette
expansion without surgery for adults. Find a different person
who understands this procedure please - its worth your time.
>
--- End Quote ---
this ^
Plus this woman
HTML http://www.happykansasfaces.com/uploads/2/9/2/7/29276427/1594005_orig.jpg
had palette expansion at around age 50, you see how things are
#Post#: 1871--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: MaxillaMaximum
Date: April 2, 2017, 3:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Progress link ---
>
> Well it must be true if an orthodontist said it.
>
>
HTML https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4185298/
>
> [quote]The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal
suture vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander
observed fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging
from 15 to 19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27,
32, 54, and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of
fusion of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability
in the developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture
is not related directly to chronologic age, particularly in
young adults.
--- End Quote ---
Seems like a hit or a miss. Some adults may achieve expansion
with non-invasive procedures, while others won't.
[/quote]
Yes, because she is not some random ortho or internet quack, but
one of the best orthos/surgeons in the country and a phd in her
field.
#Post#: 1872--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: Progress
Date: April 2, 2017, 4:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MaxillaMaximum link ---
>
> [quote author=Progress link=topic=248.msg1863#msg1863
date=1491141240]
> Well it must be true if an orthodontist said it.
>
>
HTML https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4185298/
>
> [quote]The start and the advance of fusion of the midpalatal
suture vary greatly with age and sex. Persson and Thilander
observed fusion of the midpalatal suture in subjects ranging
from 15 to 19 years old. On the other hand, patients at ages 27,
32, 54, and even 71 years have been reported to have no signs of
fusion of this suture. Such findings indicate that variability
in the developmental stages of fusion of the midpalatal suture
is not related directly to chronologic age, particularly in
young adults.
--- End Quote ---
Seems like a hit or a miss. Some adults may achieve expansion
with non-invasive procedures, while others won't.
[/quote]
Yes, because she is not some random ortho or internet quack, but
one of the best orthos/surgeons in the country and a phd in her
field.
[/quote]
I believe you, but that hardly changes anything. A subjective
opinion of a single expert does not weigh much against even a
single study, let alone multiple case studies, no matter how
much respect he/she commands. Here's a case study about the
woman whose pictures were posted earlier:
HTML http://www.happykansasfaces.com/uploads/2/9/2/7/29276427/cranio_uk_article.pdf
As you can see, her results were achieved with non-invasive
techniques (apart from releasing tongue tie with a laser).
Whether or not similar results are achievable for all adults
though, I have no idea. But it certainly is the case for some.
#Post#: 1875--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: MaxillaMaximum
Date: April 3, 2017, 5:20 am
---------------------------------------------------------
It is not subjective if it is based on mathematics (forces of
pressure and how they affect the jaw) and actual case examples.
You have to understand that when you get a phd you aren't
presenting "subjective opinions", but actual, rational research
based on case examples and logical, mathematical reasoning. They
have to actually calculate the forces in play in order to
achieve whatever bone advancement you need. If there is not
enough force - nothing will happen.
For some adults - yes, maybe. But for most - the bone has been
fused and no matter how strong you push you do not have the
natural means of moving or reshaping the bone.
#Post#: 1878--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: Progress
Date: April 3, 2017, 7:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: MaxillaMaximum link ---
>
> It is not subjective if it is based on mathematics (forces of
pressure and how they affect the jaw) and actual case examples.
>
--- End Quote ---
Although the reality is governed by both discovered and
undiscovered mathematical laws, neither you or your doctor uses
mathematics to determine the potential for facial changes. No
one does. You can get an approximate idea of how much static
force is needed to influence bone (which is somewhere around 500
g), but that's about as far as math can be useful here. And not
even that estimation has been achieved through raw mathematics,
but experimentation.
The case examples you've been shown in which adult palatal
expansion hasn't been achieved don't invalidate other case
examples where adult palatal expansion has been achieved (such
as the one I linked earlier), but the existence of the latter
DOES invalidate your doctor's claim about palatal expansion
being impossible for adults.
--- Quote from: MaxillaMaximum link ---
>
> You have to understand that when you get a phd you aren't
presenting "subjective opinions", but actual, rational research
based on case examples and logical, mathematical reasoning.
--- End Quote ---
In other words, your argument is that people with phd must be
objectively right and have access to superior logic and
reasoning, because they have a phd. Take a moment to appreciate
how stupidly naive argument that is.
In an age where most studies are available for all to read,
there is nothing that gives a person with phd an exclusive
scientific or intellectual advantage over an unemployed asshat
who has access to the internet and is not completely incabable
of critical thinking.
Doctors form subjective opinions, theories and conclusions based
on the studies they read just like everyone else does. They're
not almighty any more than you and me. They are prone to error
and bias like every other human being.
--- Quote from: MaxillaMaximum link ---
> If there is not enough force - nothing will happen.
--- End Quote ---
Here I agree with you. But on the other hand you say:
--- Quote from: MaxillaMaximum link ---
>
> no matter how strong you push you do not have the natural
means of moving or reshaping the bone.
>
--- End Quote ---
Which one do you actually believe to be true? That with enough
force change will happen, or that no amount of force will result
in change?
#Post#: 1995--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: Tyler
Date: April 30, 2017, 7:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
There is a different kind expansion that is able to take place,
if I understand the reality correctly.
It will not actually achieve growth, because to my knowledge,
there are fissures in the bone during childhood and puberty so
new bone-matter can be constantly added, so that a child is even
able to grow into an adult in the first place.
This means that there has to be a split in between two bones, so
that as nourishment is consumed, new bone-matter can be created
in between the two bone parts, which thereby allows the arms and
the legs and everything that has a bone underlying it to expand
and lengthen, because the new bone-matter pushes the two
separate bones apart from each other while adding new
bone-matter between them, so that eventually when everything
becomes fused together, an adult-sized bone results.
So eventually that probably fuses to be sure, since the growing
period finalises itself in adulthood, or whenever. It's a
mystery to me why some people would have that happen in their
20s and why some people would not have that happen until they
are 70, but who knows what all is possible in the creative.
Definitely not me.
But anyway, to my knowledge bone is not actually hard like rock.
It is slightly bendable, although too sudden force causes it to
break. You can't bend rock though, because it's too hard. But
bone is not quite so hard, if I know reality rightly, because
bone is just made of minerals, and some bones can be eaten after
all after being boiled, however a rock would still be too hard
even if it was boiled for a week.
So the thing about face-pulling and whatnot, to my best
knowledge, is not that new growth is being created, but rather
the consistently applied force is reshaping the bone that is
already existing, and therefore very gradually moving the bone
into a different shape. And any expansion of the palette that
results would be akin to how if a person pushed into clay bowl
when it was soft enough, they can actually cause it to expand
and open out at the bottom, thereby creating a larger bowl,
however no extra clay-material is added, because what is there
is just reshaped.
I actually wonder if it would even be possible to build on the
bones a little bit, if all the right nourishment was taken in,
and actually since we all make this effort, in my opinion it may
be wise to start adding some calcium to the whole nourishment
plan, since we should want to have stable bones and not brittle
ones as well, right?
Actually, I have read it is not wise to consume too much protein
in fact, not more than a few grams per day, because otherwise
the muscles can grow too much and put pressure on the bones
because the muscle expands both inwardly and outwardly, which
squeezes them and compresses them. So gaining mass like a
body-builder might actually be leading to some herculean men who
nevertheless have the squished bones of an elderly person
underneath all that muscle ... But, it shows how the bones are
not really like rock, but are a semi-hard matter, which is just
slightly malleable...
Science over >.>
#Post#: 2002--------------------------------------------------
Re: Professiona Phd orthodontist said that maxilla horizontal
expansion is impossible after age of 2
DIR By: TheNo0n3
Date: May 1, 2017, 8:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Tyler link ---
>
>
> Actually, I have read it is not wise to consume too much
protein in fact, not more than a few grams per day, because
otherwise the muscles can grow too much and put pressure on the
bones because the muscle expands both inwardly and outwardly,
which squeezes them and compresses them. So gaining mass like a
body-builder might actually be leading to some herculean men who
nevertheless have the squished bones of an elderly person
underneath all that muscle ... But, it shows how the bones are
not really like rock, but are a semi-hard matter, which is just
slightly malleable...
>
> Science over >.>
>
--- End Quote ---
Will have to correct on that. Resistance training is proven to
make bones thicker and harder, thus bodybuilders which are
victims to crashes and so on have a higher chance of getting out
alive. Protein intself wont make your muscles grow, you need to
micro tears which are then repaired using protein as a repairing
substance. Few grams is hardly plausible, a healthy normal
individual needs between 0.4 and 0.8 pro kg of bodyweight where
as a training individual between 1.4-1.8. There are numerous
discussions on the right amounts, some say 1.4 is enough but for
me personally it doesnt work, some say that you need more, like
more than 2.2 even 3, but those are most likely funded by
fitness supplement industries and are rigged. Steroids however
are proven to add muscle mass without doing any resistance
training, now for this case what you are saying might be true,
because the bone doesnt get any resistance to adapt, but that is
purely theoretical and just a thought, which I dont believe, but
who knows, I am not too in on the subject. Protein wont make
muscles bigger by itself but can help fat losing.
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