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#Post#: 826--------------------------------------------------
Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: Connor
Date: October 2, 2014, 3:00 pm
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I was reading this page on Dean Howells website when something
caught my eye. Towards the last section of this page it talks
about directly moving the sphenoid bone and getting it to stay.
It seems in many cases with just simply inflating the finger cot
into the nasal cavity(im guessing even with massage and body
releasing tecniques), it would only give temporary relief to the
patients and then they would return back to the dysfunctional
makeup of the body they had previously. NCR doctors seem to know
exactly where and when to put the balloon in the correct nasal
cavity in order for not only maximum progress, but for lasting
progress that wont depress back to the patients original state.
I have noticed this while performing NCR & Facepulling on myself
for the past almost two, three years now. I will seem to have
fantastic progress for a short time but then, somewhere down the
line i notice that it seems my body and skull almost "return".
It is very discouraging to say the least especially after the
money and time put down for braces(damon) a second time. Anyway,
besides my pitiful talking, Im starting to think its important
to see an NCR doctor and receive initial treatments (not one but
maybe a few). That way you yourself can document what they are
doing and ask as many questions as you can so when the time
comes for self treatment, you can actually get the progress you
are looking for.
That brings me to Ben (bstratt). He initally had many treatments
before starting self treatment himself. This would lead me to
believe it is a big factor with the profound success hes had.
What are your thoughts lads....Here is the Dean Howell website
text....
"PHYSICIAN TRAINING INFORMATION FOR NEUROCRANIAL RESTRUCTURING
TECHNIQUES
Have you ever been frustrated with patients whose structures
continually return to the same pattern, regardless of your
treatment techniques? Have you ever been upset to be told that a
patient had a chronic injury and therefore could only be given
brief respite from their pain? I was angry about it!
NCR is the outgrowth of over 19 years of clinical experience and
frustration with physical medicine. When I was in school, my
anatomy instructors were still teaching the archaic concept of
skull fusion. The treatment concepts and protocols that I
learned were essentially unchanged since the early 1900’s. It
was only with physical medicine concepts that there seemed to be
this stasis; with other aspects of medicine, there were new
developments.
I learned manipulation of hard and soft tissues from men with
thirty to fifty years of clinical experience. The younger
doctors would ask these same men for advice when they were
confused. Yet when it came to biochemical questions or questions
regarding toxicity of substances, we were quick to pull out the
current research. At the time I accepted this situation; I
didn’t question why there were no new concepts in physical
medicine. Now I do.
I think that physical medicine represents the fourth leg of
natural medicine: (1) Biochemistry (2) Detoxification (3)
Lifestyle (4) Structure or Physical Medicine.
You cannot often heal a physical medicine structure with
nutrition, supplements of detoxification. This is because these
are not nutritional, lifestyle or toxic exposure problems. In
many cases, only physical medicine techniques are appropriate,
and they do not work often enough.
When I looked at my training (in retrospect), I realized that
there were few unifying concepts in physical medicine
treatments:
1. Bones should line up where we think they should be
2. Muscles shouldn’t be tight.
This meant that we should push, pull, massage, exercise, stretch
or use braces or other devices to coerce the muscles and bones
into the positions that we thought were best for the body. To
the frustration of all concerned, these patients’ bodies
continually return to the previous pattern of alignment.
My realization was that these simple concepts are wrong. For
example, when a patient had a whiplash injury and his neck
straightened out, I decided to pretend that the body was working
properly instead of being injured. I could find no conflict with
the clinical findings. This meant that the body had a functional
reason to align the neck in a straighter pattern. Then I needed
to determine why the body needed to align this way and treat the
cause. I found that the reason why the body straightened the
neck pattern after a whiplash injury was to support the head
more effectively. The local injury to the neck is quickly
treated. This is the reason why a person with whiplash makes
steady improvement when treatment is initiated—the local
treatment techniques are treating the local trauma. When medical
stability is realized, the local treatment is finished and the
so-called chronic injury remains.
At this point, the generalized body reaction to the injury has
not been addressed. What typically remains is the cranial
trauma. The whiplash injury moves the head anteriorly, creating
a straighter neck to support the weight of the head. The
proprioceptive system moves the bones of the body into the most
convenient stable pattern for the skull, even if this stable
pattern causes pain and poor functioning in other areas of the
body. This means that most musculoskeletal problems are not
local problems—they have systemic causation. Local therapy is
unable to create lasting changes in the musculoskeletal system
because it is not treating the cause of the structural patterns.
Let me restate that. Cranial stability has the highest priority
in the body’s physical hierarchy. It is more important than pain
or musculoskeletal function. When I performed conventional
physical medicine therapies on my patients, I destabilized them.
Because the proprioceptive system didn’t like this, the body
would return to the nearest stable alignment.
The object of treatment, then, is to find physical medicine
modalities that work with the body’s proprioceptive system. The
widely practiced techniques of muscle, spine and cranial
manipulation have low percentages of success. Evidently they are
not addressing the situation well. When I researched cranial
techniques, I found writings going back into the 1930’s and even
the 1920’s that reported the ineffectiveness of external cranial
treatment. The conclusion of these early thinkers was that the
sphenoid positioning is paramount in cranial bone positions,
primarily because of the central position that the sphenoid bone
has in cranial bone interrelationships. It became apparent that
the sphenoid is poorly represented on the external surfaces of
the skull, and the greater mass of the internal surfaces of the
sphenoid cannot be accessed easily.
Practitioners developed techniques to move the sphenoid bone
internally, using fingers up the nose and into the throat as
well as inflating small balloons in patient’s noses—all to move
the sphenoid through direct contact. These techniques are
generally ineffective, yet in a few cases they proved so
successful that the whole field remained tantalizing.
The question had become: How do we move the sphenoid bone and
make it stay?
I had used Bilateral Nasal Specific Technique for years and
found it somewhat effective. With BNS, a small finger cot is
lubricated, inserted sequentially among the six nasal meati into
the nasopharynx and then inflated for two to five seconds with a
sphygnomometer bulb. The problem with BNS was that it was
sometimes painful and generally gave only temporary results for
conditions other than nasal ones (hence the name).
Patients with severe chronic problems often became permanent
patients because of the relief that they received. This was
frustrating to my patients and to me. While I was trying to make
my treatments last longer, I discovered that the sphenoid bone’s
relative position and the stress patterns in the cranial
structure could be analyzed. As I began to see the sphenoid bone
as a bone connected with a network of bones that collectively
determined their positions, the ability to make greater changes
in the bone position developed. But the treatments still didn’t
last or accumulate much.
This approach is the foundation for the NeuroCranial
Restructuring™. I employ methods of manipulation that have been
in use for at least sixty years. However, the analysis and
thinking techniques I use began in 1995."
Dean Howell, ND"
#Post#: 830--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: Norm23
Date: October 3, 2014, 2:13 am
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You might have a point re: importance of balloon placement, and
possibly the importance of proper body work beforehand. That's
not to say you can't improve without these things, it's just
their importance may have been understated on this forum.
I'm coming to this from a similar angle as you. I began with
"self-ballooning" about 6 months ago and noticed some progress,
but just not to the extent I was hoping for. There were also
some doubts about whether I was performing the procedure
correctly. Early on, I had problems similar to those documented
here by CP (i.e. the balloon would tend to travel down towards
my throat with minimal pressure, rather than up towards the
sphenoid). Later, I adjusted the method to be as similar to NCR
as I could...which is to say most of the expansion would occur
in the turbinates first, before bursting through into the throat
and hitting the sphenoid. Even going so far as to perform the
procedure lying down and stacking up to three finger cots at a
time (and frequently popping them). There were some small
improvements, and definitely a sensation of movement after the
inflations, but the changes didn't seem to accumulate like I
thought they should. After some modest improvements, it felt
like I hit a bit of a sticking point.
Since then I've down a couple things:
1) Atlasprofilax. The procedure immediately improved the range
of motion of my neck. It also resulted in an immediate and
noticeable (although not major) improvement to facial symmetry.
My left leg felt weird for a day and I slept a bit longer the
night of the procedure, but no significant improvements beyond
the first day changes. It appears I've held onto those
improvements for about 3 months now... although I'm not 100%
sure if the atlas has kept its new position. I was supposed to
find out this week but plans fell through unfortunately.
2) ABC with endonasal correction. I started the treatment this
week. It is very similar to NCR, in that the balance testing is
exactly the same and the actual inflating method appears to be
exactly the same. The difference is that rather than completing
NCR "bodywork", they complete a number of stretches/adjustments
to release the meninges. Some of them are pretty basic, some of
them are incredibly intense (I say this as a 25 year old man who
has been to a few chiropractors before and generally am not
phased by neck adjustments. But I am not exaggerating when I say
that some of these adjustments I had never felt anything like
that before in my life- almost like someone was bending my spine
like a pretzel). Curiously, after the meningeal release I
noticed a significant amount of facial movement, much more than
usual- and I hadn't even started the endonasal ballooning
portion of the session.
In terms of the actual inflation, it felt near identical to what
I was doing except that the doctor pinches my nose as he
completes the inflations and seems to spend a lot more time
beforehand directing the finger cot "deep" into the correct
nasal passage (not sure if that's really necessary, and it's
kind of painful when the toothpick is poking your turbinates).
It's literally one inflation, two inflations, three inflations,
and bam it bursts into your throat. Ideally the doctor detects
the pressure difference as feedback through his hands, or maybe
he inflates one more time and gags you which kind of sucks- this
is his cue to hit the release valve. In terms of the pressure
applied, it actually felt as though less pressure was being
applied then what I had been doing. Although he was only using
one balloon, whereas I had been using two to three. Every single
time he has placed the finger cot in the exact same location,
which in my case in bottom right turbinate. This is different
from where I had been inflating most of the time.
It's only been one week, but so far the changes seem to have
been accumulating far more rapidly than with self-ballooning. I
feel less wound up and calmer (although I'm also on vacation,
lol). My theory is that in many cases, endo-nasal ballooning is
not sufficient on its own to produce optimal results.
Occassionally, spinal problems can be bad enough that they
impact the skull. In such cases, the spine also needs to be
addressed. And for the record, my spine is a mess.
It's a little early to judge results, so I will wait another 6
months or so and see where I'm at with the ABC endonasal.
Unfortunately I am not able to seek treatment as often as I
would like due to the travel required, plus my crazy work
schedule. I'm tempted to complete some self-inflations now that
I know the "correct" passageway, but I think I will avoid so I
can determine the true efficacy of ABC endonasal. Best case
scenario is I will get in 4 or more 5 sessions in that time
frame. Not sure if this answers your questions, but at least it
gives you the perspective of someone who starting with
self-ballooning before moving to NCR, which is exactly the
opposite of what Ben did (NCR first, followed by
self-ballooning).
#Post#: 833--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: Connor
Date: October 3, 2014, 2:59 pm
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I'm right on with you Norm perfectly worded....Its not to say it
cant be done or accomplished but the usage and importance may
definitely have been understated by many on this forum including
me. I also got atlas-profilax done by Michael Hane (awesome
amazing guy) and I saw some obvious improvements the first time
but not very many as I believe the effects of atlas profilax are
ongoing and very slow. I also believe it can be a great help on
improving and paving a smoother road for all the NCR and
Facepulling and all the positive outcomes of them....I also did
ABC and it seemed to be very relaxing and feel great but i had
no real awesome effects from it even though i went a number of
6-8 times. Maybe the car ride messed up my results as his
practice was a ways away. Keep us updated on your progress its
great to hear your having it Norm.
#Post#: 834--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: Norm23
Date: October 3, 2014, 3:52 pm
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Will do.
Just curious, did your atlas stay in its new position on your
follow-up appointment?
Also I'm assuming the ABC chiro you saw did not also do
endocranial ballooning? But that would blow my theory out of the
water that neck and spine issues are causing the cranial
problems, given that you've done both ABC and atlaspro.
#Post#: 835--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: Connor
Date: October 3, 2014, 10:00 pm
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I completely forgot to mention my ABC guy did actually give me a
balloon treatment but only after i practically persuaded him. He
really didnt seem like he wanted nor knew what he was doing even
though he was trained to do it. I actually had to refrain from
laughing because of how poorly he did the procedure. He also
talked a very great deal of **** excuse my French, on NCR and Dr
Dean Howell. He tried explaining (also poorly) on how Dean stole
the procedure from the ABC creator guy which I really don't know
or believe its true. But someone could prove me wrong. Basically
in the end he said my skull isn't the issue and my spine is. He
said it would take many many ABC treatments from him to fix my
"incredibly wound up spine" and he was up for the challenge.
That's when i basically gave him the finger and walked away.
I've had NCR done and it was in my opinion 100x better than what
the ABC guy did to me and I actually saw results....though i'm
sure others would protest me and say their ABC practitioner was
much better....which i undoubtedly believe they probably were.
Another thing Norm this is just what has worked and not worked
for me. It can be completeley diffrent for you and to be honest
id still give it a go if i were you. I honestly have no idea
what I personally am doing wrong and why my skull & body is
being a little punk and not cooperating. I plan on talking to
Plato and paying him to help me out and diagnose me on this
stuff. Because when i met him in New York he seemed to be the
smartest and most experienced person I've met whos done and come
out of this stuff with great results along with his good friend
Kevin and Patient Ian zero.
So if you have the spare cash and time id still give it a go
man! But my experience one NCR treatment is better than my 8 ABC
treatments. Then again my ABC guy didnt seem like he was the
best in the field.
#Post#: 841--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: MessiahMews
Date: October 12, 2014, 9:38 pm
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--- Quote from: Connor link ---
>
> I completely forgot to mention my ABC guy did actually give me
a balloon treatment but only after i practically persuaded him.
He really didnt seem like he wanted nor knew what he was doing
even though he was trained to do it. I actually had to refrain
from laughing because of how poorly he did the procedure. He
also talked a very great deal of **** excuse my French, on NCR
and Dr Dean Howell. He tried explaining (also poorly) on how
Dean stole the procedure from the ABC creator guy which I really
don't know or believe its true. But someone could prove me
wrong. Basically in the end he said my skull isn't the issue and
my spine is. He said it would take many many ABC treatments from
him to fix my "incredibly wound up spine" and he was up for the
challenge. That's when i basically gave him the finger and
walked away.
> I've had NCR done and it was in my opinion 100x better than
what the ABC guy did to me and I actually saw results....though
i'm sure others would protest me and say their ABC practitioner
was much better....which i undoubtedly believe they probably
were.
>
>
> Another thing Norm this is just what has worked and not worked
for me. It can be completeley diffrent for you and to be honest
id still give it a go if i were you. I honestly have no idea
what I personally am doing wrong and why my skull & body is
being a little punk and not cooperating. I plan on talking to
Plato and paying him to help me out and diagnose me on this
stuff. Because when i met him in New York he seemed to be the
smartest and most experienced person I've met whos done and come
out of this stuff with great results along with his good friend
Kevin and Patient Ian zero.
>
> So if you have the spare cash and time id still give it a go
man! But my experience one NCR treatment is better than my 8 ABC
treatments. Then again my ABC guy didnt seem like he was the
best in the field.
>
--- End Quote ---
I've done both NCR and ABC treatments, and both of them have
given me excellent results. I got the ABC because that guy is
closer than NCR, and I wanted the spine to unwind a little
faster. My ABC guy did not take the ABC Endonasal training, so
I still have to travel to get the NCR. I usually get a ROLFing
session, then ABC right before the NCR trip, and sometimes
during with another ABC guy in the same area as my NCR
naturopath.
Dean Howell taught Jesse Jutkowitz the balloon inflations
training, and Jesse J. taught Dean the testing part of it. If
you listen closely on this video of Jesse talking, you will hear
him say he took the course from Dean, but that he, in turn
taught the Dean the testing.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8fRRFoPSfI
On this page, Dean Howell talks about teaching Jesse the
ballooning part.
HTML http://www.drdeanhowell.com/balloon-sinuplasty.html
--- Quote ---
> "I taught ECM to Jesse Jutkowitz, DC who showed me the Spinal
Stressology techniques that the Wards had been unwilling to show
me. He was convinced that my sphenoid wing palpation points
could be tested with the Applied Kinesiology techniques of
Spinal Stressology."
--- End Quote ---
You can read the whole thing to get the whole text. That should
clear up who taught who what and so forth.
My NCR naturopath is Hillary, and the last time I had NCR with
her, my husband and I had just finished up taking a basic live
seminar of ABC. I had several of those meningeal releases in
one day, as it is part of the training. I We also had to do
them on each other and other chiropractors and/or practitioners.
I ended up having 2 Lateral, 3 Anterior and 1 Posterior
meningeal release. The Anterior meningeal release is the
hardest to endure. But for the rest of that day and the day
after, I had no appetite, and my digestion was better. The
lateral meningeal release is the easiest to endure. When it was
time for the NCR part of the trip, Hillary noted that my
shoulders were square and back. She was testing me and pushing
me hard and I would not go forward and she noted that I was very
stable. To me, it seemed that the NCR and ABC worked well
together. My husband does ABC on me at home, minus the
meningeal releases, as he's still not comfortable doing them
without supervision. So I go to the ABC chiropractor once a
month for a full ABC adjustment, and hubby does tune ups in
between.
I had planned on doing an AtlasProfilax during this Fall season,
but that fell through, along with my next upcoming NCR session.
I lost one of my jobs temporarily, so I will have to reschedule
in the spring. I would love for someone close to us to learn
NCR, so I won't have to travel to the next state. The NCR costs
are not bad, it's the travel, gas and lodging which ends up
being more than the NCR itself.
I'm still doing facial pulling every now and then just using my
hands.
I won't do self NCR until I am taught by either Dean or Jesse,
because I prefer the testing beforehand and I would rather learn
proper testing and balloon insertion first before attempting on
a do-it-yourself session.
I'm also going to be looking into the NRCT (Neurological Relief
Centers Technique) aka The Paul Whitcomb protocol. It also
addresses the meningeal compression and the Atlas. If I can't
get to an AtlasPro practitioner, then this would be the next
best thing for me.
Paul Whitcomb's main focus is Meningeal Compression and
Fibromyalgia.
HTML http://whitcombpaul.wordpress.com/2012/12/27/fibromyalgia-and-meningeal-compression-dr-paul-whitcomb/
The websites are:
HTML http://whitcombpaul.wordpress.com/
HTML http://www.nrc.md/
HTML http://www.stopfibro.net/
For TMJ, I'm also using something called TMJ-Ease by Elijah
Free, which is an herbal extract combination. It helps the
excess hardening of calculi and fibrin to soften up and dissolve
in an indirect way by addressing a rare nutrient deficiency of
the potassium spectrum. Also serrapeptase is used for any
hardened fibrin and fibrosis conditions, and it's a direct
action.
Thankfully, both my NCR doctor and ABC doctor have been doing
these for a long time, so I'm in good hands with great results
from both.
#Post#: 846--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: Knoppe
Date: October 21, 2014, 1:22 am
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I noticed a similar thing with face pulling. As soon as I went a
couple of weeks without, my face seemed to revert. This also
happens on and off but seems to have stabilised for now.
I've only been doing NCR with a licensed practitioner and I've
had great results so far. I feel as if there definatly is
something that hampers the self treatment portion. Meaning that
I think it's possible but more demanding.
What are your take on tongue posture and proper swallowing? I
feel as if the reseting of the cranial bones when swallowing is
a crucial part in all of this. I feel it's a possible negative
feedback loop. Crooked skulm = crooked teeth = even more crooked
skull.
From my current point of view, I feel as if one really benefits
from a broader treatment but at the same time I really don't
know. What I mean is that in theory the dental arches collapse
because of poor tongue posture which may stem from mouth
breathing and/or a crooked skull. Not adressing poor tongue
posture will result in relapsing. The same goes for the cranial
bones. If they're crooked, relapse will ensure later on.
Also. There is a third aspect which I myself are reluctant to
adress. Skull sinking as described in the Starecta method. Worm
down teeth makes the head sink due to loss of vertical support
which in turn affects the heads posture and therefore the rest
of the body. The Starecta method prescribes artificial
heightening of the teeth by support. The book is a bit expensive
but interesting, seeing as the author got amazing results
himself.
I feel there is something missing in the current theory and I'm
wondering what.
#Post#: 848--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: ect
Date: October 24, 2014, 2:36 am
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Knoppe: This is the first time I've seen the Starecta method
discussed anywhere. How did you find out about it and what do
you know so far? Also what theory are you referring to where
something is missing?
I read bits of the Starecta preview book I think, and the
concepts make sense. I met Plato in New York and he had made up
a device himself and was very excited about what it has to
offer, he seems to think it's the missing component in balancing
one's structure between all the other things talked about here.
I thought I could address the more sunken part of my skull from
face pulling by applying more force to that side, or pulling at
different angles. Plato said he tried all that to no avail but
the Starecta method has been working, in turn also straightening
his pelvis and spine like you can see from the inventor's
results on the website.
#Post#: 850--------------------------------------------------
Re: Some possible Issues with self NCR
DIR By: Knoppe
Date: November 3, 2014, 1:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The height dimension is what I'm talking about as the missing
piece. We talk about forward and outward movement but mever
about supporting bite height.
My ortho builds my bite up everytime I go for a check-up.
The first time I got these build ups. I felt amazing just after
a few days. And so, I don't need to be pursuaded by the Starecta
people regarding bite height. It does matter. What I'm unsure of
is if it's possible to fix this without permanent build ups or
not.
Through Plato aswell.
/Knoppe
--- Quote from: ect link ---
>
> Knoppe: This is the first time I've seen the Starecta method
discussed anywhere. How did you find out about it and what do
you know so far? Also what theory are you referring to where
something is missing?
>
> I read bits of the Starecta preview book I think, and the
concepts make sense. I met Plato in New York and he had made up
a device himself and was very excited about what it has to
offer, he seems to think it's the missing component in balancing
one's structure between all the other things talked about here.
I thought I could address the more sunken part of my skull from
face pulling by applying more force to that side, or pulling at
different angles. Plato said he tried all that to no avail but
the Starecta method has been working, in turn also straightening
his pelvis and spine like you can see from the inventor's
results on the website.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
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