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#Post#: 2899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: Siouxie
Date: January 24, 2022, 8:19 pm
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--- Quote from: BuckinghamshireBoy link ---
>
> Quoting this, just because I can't seem to find a "shitty
death" emoji.
>
> +++
>
> I stayed up a bit too late tonight, wanting to watch the
re-run of BBC's Nick Robinson's discussion with Steve Baker.
>
>
> Baker looks (almost unbelievably more than ever) like he has
close connections to Scunthorpe.
>
--- End Quote ---
Will these do?
HTML https://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji90.pnghttps://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji36.pnghttps://emoji.tapatalk-cdn.com/emoji88.png
HTML https://c.tenor.com/9QMTL4kgC5UAAAAM/dead-emoji.gif
#Post#: 2914--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: Monsieur Rioux
Date: January 25, 2022, 6:14 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Siouxie link ---
>
> Therein lies the difference between us... I hapspen to like
traditions, monarchies and respecting the law of the land. Not
everything needs changing.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm okay with (limited) monarchy. After all, I happily accepted
my MBE from the queen. Gave my mum possibly the proudest day of
her life several times over. :D
I like traditions too - NHS, employment rights, tenants rights
(and landlord's rights ;) ) welfare benefits safety net and so
on.
Certain governments have not been very respective of those
traditions and it's usually been those where first past the post
has benefited them disproportionately. No surprise when they
can gain power, change processes and electoral boundaries etc
that help them the next time.
I used to be dead against PR thinking that no single party would
ever be able to do what it wants and nothing would get done. But
power went to the government's head(s) from the 80s to the 90s
and then Blair, having done great things to begin with, spoiled
his legacy by getting too arrogant for the same electoral
successes.
So having seen what happened with both sides given free rein I
moved in favour of PR and now we're seeing something slightly
different but equally "wrong" and completely uncontrolled and
even encouraged because there are rewards available for support
and "the people" can do nothing about it until it's too late.
PR, in whatever form, is the norm in other systems in Europe and
their governments appear to do just fine.
I now see PR as a safeguard against excesses.
#Post#: 2915--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: Lion in Winter
Date: January 25, 2022, 6:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BristolUK link ---
>
> I'm okay with (limited) monarchy. After all, I happily
accepted my MBE from the queen. Gave my mum possibly the
proudest day of her life several times over. :D
>
> I like traditions too - NHS, employment rights, tenants rights
(and landlord's rights ;) ) welfare benefits safety net and so
on.
>
> Certain governments have not been very respective of those
traditions and it's usually been those where first past the post
has benefited them disproportionately. No surprise when they
can gain power, change processes and electoral boundaries etc
that help them the next time.
>
> I used to be dead against PR thinking that no single party
would ever be able to do what it wants and nothing would get
done. But power went to the government's head(s) from the 80s to
the 90s and then Blair, having done great things to begin with,
spoiled his legacy by getting too arrogant for the same
electoral successes.
>
> So having seen what happened with both sides given free rein I
moved in favour of PR and now we're seeing something slightly
different but equally "wrong" and completely uncontrolled and
even encouraged because there are rewards available for support
and "the people" can do nothing about it until it's too late.
>
> PR, in whatever form, is the norm in other systems in Europe
and their governments appear to do just fine.
>
> I now see PR as a safeguard against excesses.
>
--- End Quote ---
And as a safeguard against having those two "sides" that you
mention. Bipolar politics has not gone well for us lately, and
look how it has played out in society, with people standing
behind lines and shouting at each other, putting each other in
the wrong "camp" according to single issues. Life isn't as
simplistic as that, and it has meant that people have
disconnected from government leaving them even more free rein to
govern for themselves, not for the country. That isn't
conservatism, it's greed, power, corruption, and self-interest.
#Post#: 2917--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: macliam
Date: January 25, 2022, 7:18 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lion in Winter link ---
>
> And as a safeguard against having those two "sides" that you
mention. Bipolar politics has not gone well for us lately, and
look how it has played out in society, with people standing
behind lines and shouting at each other, putting each other in
the wrong "camp" according to single issues. Life isn't as
simplistic as that, and it has meant that people have
disconnected from government leaving them even more free rein to
govern for themselves, not for the country. That isn't
conservatism, it's greed, power, corruption, and self-interest.
>
--- End Quote ---
There are many forms of PR and all have their advantages and
disadvantages - but plainly, the bipolar politics of the UK (and
USA) offer only a veneer of democracy. In Ireland, a form of PR
that kept defined local representation replaced the FPTP system
- but we still ended up with a largely bipolar system... not
left and right, but based around the old arguments of the civil
war. The Labour party and other minor parties rattled about, but
couldn't really change the conversation. Now Sinn Féin have
arrived as a challenge to the big two - and forced them to
compromise and form a coalition purely to oppose SF. Hopefully
this will be a progressive move and further movement to
democracy. Unfortunately, in the UK (or the USA) I see nothing
to give the same momentum.....
#Post#: 2923--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: Lion in Winter
Date: January 25, 2022, 8:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: macliam link ---
>
> There are many forms of PR and all have their advantages and
disadvantages - but plainly, the bipolar politics of the UK (and
USA) offer only a veneer of democracy. In Ireland, a form of PR
that kept defined local representation replaced the FPTP system
- but we still ended up with a largely bipolar system... not
left and right, but based around the old arguments of the civil
war. The Labour party and other minor parties rattled about, but
couldn't really change the conversation. Now Sinn Féin have
arrived as a challenge to the big two - and forced them to
compromise and form a coalition purely to oppose SF. Hopefully
this will be a progressive move and further movement to
democracy. Unfortunately, in the UK (or the USA) I see nothing
to give the same momentum.....
>
--- End Quote ---
Agree, momentum for fundamental change is clearly lacking.
Countries, and people, are not quick to learn new ways. In
Ireland, at least, you have a structure that permits new ways of
doing the business of running the country; in the UK, we aren't
even there yet.
#Post#: 2924--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: macliam
Date: January 25, 2022, 9:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lion in Winter link ---
>
> Agree, momentum for fundamental change is clearly lacking.
Countries, and people, are not quick to learn new ways. In
Ireland, at least, you have a structure that permits new ways of
doing the business of running the country; in the UK, we aren't
even there yet.
>
--- End Quote ---
The reason I cite Ireland is not blind nationalism. It is
because a) I know the system a little and b) it was specifically
designed to retain the "best" aspects of the British system it
replaced, whilst removing the bits that didn't work so well.
There are still things that might benefit from reform, but
by-and-large it works (as witnessed by the fairly fundamental
changes seen over recent years).
However, some prerequisites are required:
- firstly, a written constitution to form a firm basis for law
(and requiring referendum consent for major change), but NOT
constitutional law (or at least, law tied as closely to the
constitution as it is in Portugal, for example)
- secondly, the institution of an "impartial" head of state with
minimal executive power (like the Queen), but elected and
time-limited. (I am immensely proud of the last three Uachtaráin
na hÉireann, particularly my fellow shannonsider who seems like
a friendly wizard!)
- thirdly, a second chamber with similar oversight powers to the
HoL. (In Ireland, this is appointed/elected in a strange and
slightly archaic way, but works. It could be better, but it
certainly beats the HoL!!)
- lastly, representatives in the lower house with firm
connection to their costituencies, but elected via a PR system
which makes every vote count.
That's a steep climb for the UK!
#Post#: 2928--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: Monsieur Rioux
Date: January 25, 2022, 10:59 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: macliam link ---
>
> ...a written constitution...
>
--- End Quote ---
That rings a bell :D
#Post#: 2930--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: Lion in Winter
Date: January 25, 2022, 11:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: macliam link ---
>
> The reason I cite Ireland is not blind nationalism. It is
because a) I know the system a little and b) it was specifically
designed to retain the "best" aspects of the British system it
replaced, whilst removing the bits that didn't work so well.
There are still things that might benefit from reform, but
by-and-large it works (as witnessed by the fairly fundamental
changes seen over recent years).
>
> However, some prerequisites are required:
>
> - firstly, a written constitution to form a firm basis for law
(and requiring referendum consent for major change), but NOT
constitutional law (or at least, law tied as closely to the
constitution as it is in Portugal, for example)
>
> - secondly, the institution of an "impartial" head of state
with minimal executive power (like the Queen), but elected and
time-limited. (I am immensely proud of the last three Uachtaráin
na hÉireann, particularly my fellow shannonsider who seems like
a friendly wizard!)
>
> - thirdly, a second chamber with similar oversight powers to
the HoL. (In Ireland, this is appointed/elected in a strange and
slightly archaic way, but works. It could be better, but it
certainly beats the HoL!!)
>
> - lastly, representatives in the lower house with firm
connection to their costituencies, but elected via a PR system
which makes every vote count.
>
> That's a steep climb for the UK!
>
--- End Quote ---
Is there anyone, anywhere in the UK,
working/agitating/organising to make any of this happen? Cos if
so, I might want to make friends with them when I get there, but
I don't see it in any organised way right now.
#Post#: 2935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: BuckinghamshireBoy
Date: January 25, 2022, 11:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Lion in Winter link ---
>
> Is there anyone, anywhere in the UK,
working/agitating/organising to make any of this happen? Cos if
so, I might want to make friends with them when I get there, but
I don't see it in any organised way right now.
>
--- End Quote ---
I see some pop up from time to time, but the most legit would
seem to be
HTML https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/
#Post#: 2940--------------------------------------------------
Re: Surely Johnson will have to go?
DIR By: Lion in Winter
Date: January 25, 2022, 12:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: BuckinghamshireBoy link ---
>
> I see some pop up from time to time, but the most legit would
seem to be
>
>
HTML https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/
>
--- End Quote ---
Hmm, thank you, I shall have to look into them.
In the meantime, Marina Hyde pulls no punches.
HTML https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jan/25/boris-johnson-cake-conservative-mps-british-prime-minister
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