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#Post#: 2925--------------------------------------------------
Ukraine
By: macliam Date: January 25, 2022, 10:28 am
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OK, I couldn't hold back any longer on the TIO topic in the
other place.......
Now, apart from being "celtic fringe", I'm fully expecting to be
called a Russia-lover! let's see if the true-blues can see
beyond their own prejudice to have a closer look at
themselves..... I doubt it.
I just hate to see lies and disinformation treated as fact.....
all history is interpretation.
#Post#: 2926--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: SultanOfSwing Date: January 25, 2022, 10:38 am
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I'm going to consider the fact that you didn't call it 'The'
Ukraine as giving you a head start over anyone in TIO.
#Post#: 2929--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: Lion in Winter Date: January 25, 2022, 11:08 am
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[quote author=macliam link=topic=155.msg2925#msg2925
date=1643128107]
OK, I couldn't hold back any longer on the TIO topic in the
other place.......
Now, apart from being "celtic fringe", I'm fully expecting to be
called a Russia-lover! let's see if the true-blues can see
beyond their own prejudice to have a closer look at
themselves..... I doubt it.
I just hate to see lies and disinformation treated as fact.....
all history is interpretation.
[/quote]
People seem to be rushing to applaud you. :D
I'm having trouble working that thread out. Up until you posted,
it looked mostly like a thread where people are roughly agreeing
but are nevertheless in search of an argument.
Disclaimer: I'm drowning in work and may not have read it all
properly.
#Post#: 2949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: macliam Date: January 25, 2022, 4:26 pm
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[quote author=Lion in Winter link=topic=155.msg2929#msg2929
date=1643130509]
People seem to be rushing to applaud you. :D
I'm having trouble working that thread out. Up until you posted,
it looked mostly like a thread where people are roughly agreeing
but are nevertheless in search of an argument.
Disclaimer: I'm drowning in work and may not have read it all
properly.
[/quote]
All seems rather too cosy - as with the reception of my post.
Never mind, I'm sure a bus will come alonng soon...
#Post#: 4285--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: caretaker Date: February 20, 2022, 8:20 am
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And things are moving right along. The head of the DPR rebels
ordered civilian evacuation days ago, the Russian Wagner mercs
reportedly came in and wired the place for sound with mines and
booby traps, OSEC reports of violations like shelling, drone
attacks, sniping, etc are doubling daily and Canada finally sent
something besides binoculars. The Olympics are ending and here's
where we find out if Putin is bluffing. The old family farm
where my mother was born is only about 70 miles from Donetsk so
I've been following this closely.
“The EU condemns the use of heavy weaponry and indiscriminate
shelling of civilian areas, which constitute a clear violation
of the Minsk agreements and international humanitarian law,”
read the statement from the EU’s high representative on
Saturday."
HTML https://yalibnan.com/2022/02/20/eu-condemns-russian-indiscriminate-shelling-of-civilian-areas-in-eastern-ukraine-live-update/
#Post#: 4287--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: macliam Date: February 20, 2022, 11:13 am
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[quote author=caretaker link=topic=155.msg4285#msg4285
date=1645366832]
And things are moving right along. The head of the DPR rebels
ordered civilian evacuation days ago, the Russian Wagner mercs
reportedly came in and wired the place for sound with mines and
booby traps, OSEC reports of violations like shelling, drone
attacks, sniping, etc are doubling daily and Canada finally sent
something besides binoculars. The Olympics are ending and here's
where we find out if Putin is bluffing. The old family farm
where my mother was born is only about 70 miles from Donetsk so
I've been following this closely.
“The EU condemns the use of heavy weaponry and indiscriminate
shelling of civilian areas, which constitute a clear violation
of the Minsk agreements and international humanitarian law,”
read the statement from the EU’s high representative on
Saturday."
HTML https://yalibnan.com/2022/02/20/eu-condemns-russian-indiscriminate-shelling-of-civilian-areas-in-eastern-ukraine-live-update/[/quote]
As you'll have seen, I'm having a great time in the "other
place" - though there seems to be only one idiot spouting the
western line with any cosistency. Unfortunately, in the face of
jingoism, one often projects oneself as being more extremely of
the opposite persuasion. Personally, I think the tragedy has
much in common with other imperial cast-offs, like Ireland. Like
in Ireland, a minority on both sides can project an untrue image
of situation
Did your mother speak Russian or Ukrainian by preference? - and
did she consider herself different to her neighbours?
Being from that area of Ukraine, I would be interested to know
if she felt closer to someone in Voronezh than to someone in
Lviv. This is the key to understanding the issue of modern
Ukraine - although "islands" of influence like Odessa make even
that view more complex than it might seem.
One thing is for certain, reducing it to an "us or them" pro or
anti NATO standpoint is a tragic misconception and certainly not
a basis for conflict.
#Post#: 4296--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: Dakota44 Date: February 20, 2022, 12:34 pm
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I hesitate to get into a debate on the issue of Ukraine. I will
say this. I grew up in a neighborhood of Ukrainians, Poles,
Slovaks and Russians. A good way to get a fight started was to
refer to a Ukrainian as Russian. Every Ukrainian I knew hated
Russia..including the parents of an ex wife. They were all
proud Diehard Ukrainians.
#Post#: 4297--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: Dakota44 Date: February 20, 2022, 12:44 pm
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[quote author=Dakota44 link=topic=155.msg4296#msg4296
date=1645382048]
I hesitate to get into a debate on the issue of Ukraine. I will
say this. I grew up in a neighborhood of Ukrainians, Poles,
Slovaks and Russians. A good way to get a fight started was to
refer to a Ukrainian as Russian. Every Ukrainian I knew hated
Russia..including the parents of an ex wife. They were all
proud Diehard Ukrainians. There sure was a lot of drinking in
that Ward...which, one supposes, might contribute to the
fisticuffs.
[/quote]
#Post#: 4300--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: macliam Date: February 20, 2022, 3:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Dakota44 link=topic=155.msg4296#msg4296
date=1645382048]
I hesitate to get into a debate on the issue of Ukraine. I will
say this. I grew up in a neighborhood of Ukrainians, Poles,
Slovaks and Russians. A good way to get a fight started was to
refer to a Ukrainian as Russian. Every Ukrainian I knew hated
Russia..including the parents of an ex wife. They were all
proud Diehard Ukrainians.
[/quote]I'd be interested to know what part of Ukraine they came
from (although that doesn't always mean anything). As I've been
trying to point out in the "other place", Ukraine is a big
territory made up of regions and people that were historically
part of other countries, the USSR, Poland, Austria-Hungary - so
there are different traditions, religions and languages.... all
subsumed by the fact that they became part of the USSR. This
became obvious in WW2 when people in the western Ukraine were
quick to side with the invading forces against the soviets. The
biggest mistake people make is to look at lines on a map and
think they define the people there - Ukraine has to straddle
that divide, not helped by being the plaything being fought over
by Russia and the west.
As an Irishman, I believe in self-determination, so I applaud
the "freedom" of the ethnic Ukrainians and anyone who identifies
as such - but it also means I must be concerned with the
ethnic-Russians who find themselves cut off from their like on
the other side of a line drawn on a map and targeted by very
vocal ultra-nationalists who see them as foreigners in their own
land.
#Post#: 4302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ukraine
By: caretaker Date: February 20, 2022, 3:44 pm
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[quote author=Dakota44 link=topic=155.msg4296#msg4296
date=1645382048]
I hesitate to get into a debate on the issue of Ukraine. I will
say this. I grew up in a neighborhood of Ukrainians, Poles,
Slovaks and Russians. A good way to get a fight started was to
refer to a Ukrainian as Russian. Every Ukrainian I knew hated
Russia..including the parents of an ex wife. They were all
proud Diehard Ukrainians.
[/quote]
The propaganda organs of the United Russia Party have been
trying for a long time to rewrite history to justify their
direction and actions, and without a knowledge of the history of
southern Russia, some people believe it. Ukrainians and most of
the other ethnic groups who lived and continue to live in that
area have good reason historically to hate and distrust
Russians. The situation today would be different if Yeltsin
hadn't been a drunk and promoted Dr Evil to where he could
become the ultimate crime boss,and it might even be different if
Trotsky had succeeded Lenin (like he wanted) instead of Stalin.
Putin knows that the Ukrainian army now isn't the same one he
and the DPR rolled over in 2014. He knows what the economic and
human costs of invading are likely to be. We'll just have to
wait and see.
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