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#Post#: 129565--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: Chris27 Date: May 10, 2013, 4:02 pm
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[quote]that many dismiss him and unrealistically downgrade their
rating of him based on on performance, but on the fact that he
is heavy. [/quote]
His quote aside, Law has watched Vogelbach several times this
year and last. I don't necessarily trust Law, but other
observers have tweeted similar comments about V-bach's defense
this year.
#Post#: 129570--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: Ron Date: May 10, 2013, 4:23 pm
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Time will tell about Vogelbach's defense. Frankly the only
opinions that matter at this point are the Cub evaluators. And
they are in a far better position to judge that than anyone who
has seen him only sporadically (such as Law). If they don't
believe he can play adequate defense, then the opinion of
evaluators from other teams will matter.
#Post#: 129571--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: StrikeZone Date: May 10, 2013, 4:28 pm
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[quote author=davep link=topic=99.msg129556#msg129556
date=1368218098]
I'm not sure what your point is. If someone says that a player
can not play first base well enough to be a regular there, and
someone else points out some others that were just as bad or
worse, but still played first base well enough to be a regular,
isn't that a valid point?
Certainly, it boils down to whether his bat is good enough to
overcome any defensive weaknesses. But there HAVE been some
players whose bat WAS good enough to overcome similar defensive
weaknesses, so ruling him out on that basis alone is foolish.
[/quote]
No, it isn't because the only thing that matters is whether or
not Daniel Vogelbach is a good enough athlete to play first base
and the overwhelmingly consensus opinion is that he isn't. The
only differing opinion is that he MIGHT be able to play first
base a little bit, on occasion.
However, some fans and message board "experts" seem to think,
for some reason, that he can not only play first, but left
field, third base and even CATCHER because some fat slob in
bygone years played there.
Whenever an actual professional writer, scout, GM, or some other
person with inside and/or first-hand knowledge points out that
the dude just isn't gonna be a successful defender on an every
day basis, some fan will drag up some sloth that used to spend
some time at a defensive position a million years ago without
pointing out the circumstances surrounding that sloth's
employment.
Ron Coomer, for instance. Let's just look at him, shall we?
When he was with the Twins, he was an All-Star! Surely, if a
weak hitter like him could play first or even third base then a
masher like Vogelbach can play first base! Well, no, actually,
Coomer was an excellent fielder as a first baseman and a below
average third baseman but he wasn't so bad that he was a joke
over there early in his Major League career. He may not have
had Keith Hernandez-like range at first base but he had soft
hands over there and he didn't kick a whole lot of ground balls.
Also, the Twins were a small market team and didn't have any
high priced players on those teams, to my recollection. In the
years that Coomer was playing first and third for them, they
finished no higher than fourth in the AL Central. Ron Coomer
isn't a positive argument for fat dudes, IMO, as his highest
OPS+ was 111 and that was in 253 PAs.
OK, John Kruk. He was fat. He was a good hitter. He was no
gold glove fielder. He is an idiot. Vogelbach can't possibly
be any worse than Kruk! Well, I'll give you that Vogelbach
can't be dumber than Kruk. That's a fair point, for sure.
But, as JR pointed out, Vogelbach is simply a butcher in the
field. Kruk may not have been a gold glover but he wasn't a
stone gloved hack, either.
Frankly, I still believe all this arguing is moot. I maintain
that the National League will have the DH in a few years and
everyone will be able to exhale and stop kvetching about
Vogelbach and his oafish defending.
#Post#: 129573--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: Playtwo Date: May 10, 2013, 4:38 pm
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Being fat is not necessarily an irreversible condition. If he
can get himself into better shape physically, his athleticism
will likely improve. Perhaps not enough to play the field, but
who knows?
#Post#: 129580--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: DelMarFan Date: May 10, 2013, 5:17 pm
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I wonder what Kruk's minor league defensive numbers were like.
The arguing is silly. It's a problem for a couple of years down
the road, not now.
#Post#: 129584--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: Jes Beard Date: May 10, 2013, 5:52 pm
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[quote author=Ron link=topic=99.msg129570#msg129570
date=1368221022]
Time will tell about Vogelbach's defense. Frankly the only
opinions that matter at this point are the Cub evaluators. And
they are in a far better position to judge that than anyone who
has seen him only sporadically (such as Law).
[/quote]
This one of the reasons I have posted this before, and post it
again, because it reflect the opinion of someone who watched
Vogelbach during nearly every home game in Boise last year.
From: Jes Beard <jesbeard@usa.net>
To: "Langrill, Chris" <clangrill@idahostatesman.com>
Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Boise Hawks question
Thanks for the response.
I genuinely appreciate it.
One of the things I liked about Vogelbach as soon as I read
about him after the Cubs drafted him was seeing that he made the
decision on his own after his Junior year in HS to start shaping
up and losing weight. Here he was, obviously a star athlete in
HS, despite his weight, and he decided to lose weight, and then
did so, on his own, at a time when it would have been far easier
to rest on his laurels and continued as a star athlete, without
the work involved in dropping those pounds.
By the way, I understand that he continued losing weight and was
down to 232 when he reported to camp for spring training.
Between that dedication, his approach at the plate, and the
leadership qualities you mention, he is a guy I really hope the
Cubs hold onto, and playing him in LF for a few years, may be
the only real way to do it.
Again, thanks for the response.
On 2/11/2013 4:08 PM, Langrill, Chris wrote:
> Jes ... Sorry ... I am off on Sundays, an it looks like your
last email came on a Sunday, and I passed it by somehow ...
>
> As for Vogelbach ... I wouldn't put it past him to play left
field ... I specifically talked to him about his athleticism,
and he takes pride in being more agile than people give him
credit for ... I think he has the athleticism, but just needs
more work with his glove more than anything ...
>
> That said, he never was even discussed in an OF role, as far
as I know ...
>
> I do know that he was a team leader who seemed to be largely
responsible for changing the team's attitude and leading Boise
to the postseason ... could very well have been named league MVP
if they split the season into two halves ...
>
> Bottom line: I'm a Cubs fan on the side, too, and I'd like to
see them find a place for Vogelbach in the organization moving
forward ...
>
> Thanks for writing and sorry for the delay in responding ...
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 1:56 PM, Jes Beard <jesbeard@usa.net>
wrote:
>
> Since I didn't see any response from either of you when I
sent this question just more than a week ago, I thought I would
send it again.
> ********************************
>
> I am writing you two as a Cubs fan, knowing that the two
of you provided the primary coverage of the Boise Hawks for your
newspaper.
>
> Your personal and direct observations of Dan Vogelbach,
and your discussions with those on and around the team, would
likely give you considerably more insight into his future than
my review of his batting stats, looking at a couple of limited
video clips online, and seeing the occasional feature on
Vogelbach or scouting report from an online publication where
the person writing the report likely never actually saw him
play.
>
> The consensus clearly is that Vogelbach is a bat first
prospect, someone who will go as far as his bat carries him,
reaching the majors if he hits, and not reaching the majors
based on his other tools.
>
> The question about Vogelbach on which I was hoping each of
you might shed some light is whether there is any real
possibility Vogelbach might in the future be able to acceptably
play OF, at least LF.
>
> Many of the online prospect sites have essentially written
him off as never under any circumstances being able to play OF,
that he scarcely is able to play 1BF, and that his future is
almost certainly going to be as a DH.
>
> As a Cub fan, well aware of the fact that Anthony Rizzo is
most likely to be at 1B for the Cubs at the major league level
for years to come, I am wondering what Vogelbach's future might
be -- a move to LF, or as trade bait.
>
> So what of Vogelbach? Did you ever see him practice in
the OF? Does his size or lack of speed or agility appear so
sever that he would never be able to play LF? Did anyone ever
discuss the possibility of actually trying him in LF sometime in
the future?
>
> Thanks in advance for any insight you might share.
>
> --
> Jes Beard
#Post#: 129587--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: davep Date: May 10, 2013, 6:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=StrikeZone link=topic=99.msg129571#msg129571
date=1368221309]
the overwhelmingly consensus opinion is that he isn't. The only
differing opinion is that he MIGHT be able to play first base a
little bit, on occasion.
[/quote]
Keith Law, and John Arguello, who quotes Keith Law, are not an
overwhelming consensus.
And even though there may be some on the board that think that
Vogelbach could play third, left, or even catcher, is not the
issue. The issue is, is Vogelbach ONLY able to be a DH, due to
his body type. Since there have been others with his body type
that DID play first base on a regular basis, no rational person
can rule him out ONLY because of his body type.
Of course, the emphasis has to be on the term rational.
#Post#: 129597--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: brjones Date: May 10, 2013, 6:31 pm
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There was another question later in the Law chat that referenced
comparisons to Fielder or Sandoval, and Law seemed to confirm
that it wasn't really a size issue for Vogelbach. It's more
that he's just not in the same class as players like Fielder and
Sandoval in the athleticism department.
Bottom line...it's not just that Vogelbach is big, it's that
he's big and lacks the athleticism to play passable defense at
any size. At least that's Law's take.
#Post#: 129600--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: Chris27 Date: May 10, 2013, 6:38 pm
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Cecil Fielder had zero athleticism or range and played 1st for
quite a while.
#Post#: 129605--------------------------------------------------
Re: On the Farm (5/9/13 - 11/4/14)
By: davep Date: May 10, 2013, 6:44 pm
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I don't believe anyone here has said that Vogelbach is in the
same class as Fielder and Sandoval in the athleticism
department. But it doesn't make much sense to say that because
he can't be great, it follows that he must be terrible. There
is a spectrum in defense, just as in any other area. Law, and
those who quote Law, are the only ones saying that he is a DH
only.
Looking back at the previous posts, I can't find where JR
pointed out that Vogelbach is a butcher in the field. He did
point out that he has made 5 errors in 29 games, but who would
be foolish enough to conclude butcherhood on the basis or 29
games?
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