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#Post#: 146743--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: davep Date: August 30, 2013, 7:35 am
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Jes - do you believe that the Government should have military
secrets?
#Post#: 146745--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: Jes Beard Date: August 30, 2013, 7:41 am
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Damn few.
Of course time and manner and scope and targets of a military
attack should be kept secret.... you know, the kind of thing
Obama himself is strongly hinting at when he now speaks about
Syria.
Nothing Snowden has released would come remotely close to
qualifying.
#Post#: 146810--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: davep Date: August 30, 2013, 12:42 pm
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So you think that there should be SOME secrets.
Do you think that anyone with access to these secrets should be
allowed to make any of them public if they don't agree that they
should be secret?
#Post#: 146816--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: Jes Beard Date: August 30, 2013, 1:00 pm
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If we are at war, which we are not, and if the secrets involve
the time and manner and scope and targets of a military attack,
I have no problem with classifying that information or
criminally punishing someone who deliberately provided that
information to the enemy for the purpose of allowing the enemy
to use it against us in a pre-emptive or defensive manner.
None of that describes what Snowden did, though some of it does
describe what Obama and Kerry are doing.
In a democratic society very little information about government
actions, plans or expenditures, should be kept secret.
If you do not want a democratic society, then it is easy to
justify keeping secret anything those running the show want to
keep secret.
#Post#: 146834--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: FDISK Date: August 30, 2013, 1:44 pm
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The US wasn't at war when the Soviets stole the secrets for the
H-bomb.
NATO wasn't at war when Philby exposed agents leading to scores
of executions.
The US isn't at war with Iran, do you think our intelligence
operatives and operations should be public knowledge?
#Post#: 146836--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: Jes Beard Date: August 30, 2013, 1:51 pm
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[quote author=FDISK link=topic=96.msg146834#msg146834
date=1377888252]
The US isn't at war with Iran, do you think our intelligence
operatives and operations should be public knowledge?
[/quote]
Operations, yes. Operatives, perhaps.
#Post#: 146842--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: FDISK Date: August 30, 2013, 2:14 pm
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What is the value added in exposing secret operations? What
wrong are you righting?
#Post#: 146843--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: Jes Beard Date: August 30, 2013, 2:18 pm
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FDISK, I don't quite understand the nature of a question asking
about "the value added."
In a democratic nation, the idea is that the people govern and
make decisions. That can not happen in a meaningful manner if
they are not at least allowed access to the information needed
to make intelligent decisions.
This is a democratic republic, not a monarchy with a divine
right of kings.
The idea was not that the President was our boss, but that we
are the President's boss.
#Post#: 146847--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: FDISK Date: August 30, 2013, 2:29 pm
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Sounds great, you should make car commercials.
But you did touch on one important point, we aren't really a
Democracy, are we? We are federal republic. Citizens don't
make their own rules, they elect representatives to do it for
them. Our duly elected representatives, our employees, made a
decision a long time ago that it was in our best interest to
have some secrets. Do you suggest that an individual is free to
ignore the will of the many? To pick and choose which laws they
will obey and to ignore the rest?
#Post#: 146851--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc.
By: Jes Beard Date: August 30, 2013, 2:45 pm
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FDISK, you seem to be trying to argue over what is or is not
legal. I have never said that what Snowden did was legal.
The existence of a law does not mean the law is MORAL or that it
should be observed. You are old enough to remember the Freedom
Riders of the early 1960's. They were breaking the law. The
law was wrong. They did exactly as you suggest no one should do
-- pick and choose the laws which they will obey or ignore.
They were patriots and they were heroes.
So is Snowden.
I have not said he did not break the law. HE has not said he
did not break the law.
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