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#Post#: 482601--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: CUBluejays Date: November 17, 2023, 2:55 pm
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[quote author=CurtOne link=topic=630.msg482600#msg482600
date=1700247600]
Are you talking about the same owner who approved of dumping a
first year manager for Joe and then dumping a Cub hero for
Craig?
[/quote]
It has been 12 years since Tom fired/didn't extend Hendry and
hired Theo. Jed is 30 games under five hundred as the Cubs GM
and has 0 playoff appearances. Like why isn't Jed on the hot
seat?
#Post#: 482602--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: Reb Date: November 17, 2023, 4:01 pm
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[quote author=CUBluejays link=topic=630.msg482601#msg482601
date=1700254501]
It has been 12 years since Tom fired/didn't extend Hendry and
hired Theo. Jed is 30 games under five hundred as the Cubs GM
and has 0 playoff appearances. Like why isn't Jed on the hot
seat?
[/quote]
Yeah, you mean that Hoyer is now tied with Theo—at three
seasons— for non-playoff appearances at start of Head of BB Ops
tenure.
If three seasons is a lifetime…then not good in either case.
But, good things happened thereafter under Theo. If doesn’t
happen under Hoyer going forward, then he’ll be on the hot seat.
Until then, some of us will be watching Cubs baseball to see how
it turns out.
#Post#: 482603--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: craig Date: November 17, 2023, 4:28 pm
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[quote author=CUBluejays link=topic=630.msg482599#msg482599
date=1700247262]
Does anybody really believe that Ricketts would pull a Hoyer? I
have a hard time believing that Tom would show up at Hoyer's
house and let him go if there was a Counsell level baseball
executive that was a free agent. Short of Theo wanting to come
back I think this is Jed's job until he doesn' want it any more.
[/quote]
This will be Hoyer's 4th season. Hoyer called it a "healthy"
situation. He must have emphasized that (persuasively) to
Counsell, who repeatedly used "healthy" to describe the Cubs
scenario. I suspect Ricketts sees it that way as well.
These last two winters, it's been understandable to perceive
progress. They finished 2022 strongly. Then this year won more
games, had a fun and competitive summer, were in the playoff
race before the September collapse, and the farm system is now
well respected with significant prospects nearing graduation. I
think it's appropriate to see the arrow pointing up in a healthy
way.
But yeah, trajectory perceptions can change pretty quickly.
What if 2024 does NOT play out as "healthy" trajectory? What if
it the big-league season regresses? Chapman, Hoskins and
Tauchman hit .205, .220, and .230? Maybe the new relievers
prove as un-helpful as Fulmer and Boxberger? Leiter pitches
like September? Wesneski, Palencia, Little, Ben Brown stay as
wild, and PCA and Alcantara regress? What if we're 10 games
under come June, and 20 by September?
If so, wouldn't surprise me if Ricketts doesn't see Hoyer
differently, *IF* both Cubs and farm look lots worse next
season? As reb notes, things are unpredictable, so who knows?
Sure hope it doesn't roll that direction, though. I'm an
optimist, and think there is good reason to figure that things
will progress in a favorable trajectory.
#Post#: 482606--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: CUBluejays Date: November 17, 2023, 5:09 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Just to be clear, Hoyer took over a team that made the playoffs
for 5 years. Tanked the team and didn’t get 1 top 10 prospect
in baseball and has pushed them up to the luxury tax and has an
83 win team in a bad division to show for it.
The Brewers might tank and you can’t look at the Cubs and go
this division is theirs. How healthy or upward trajectory do
the Cubs really have? If they were in the East or West they
would be an afterthought. Goc, I’ve become Jeff.
#Post#: 482608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: Deeg Date: November 17, 2023, 5:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=CurtOne link=topic=630.msg482600#msg482600
date=1700247600]
Are you talking about the same owner who approved of dumping a
first year manager for Joe and then dumping a Cub hero for
Craig?
[/quote]
Different as chalk and cheese. Hoyer is the vehicle for
Ricketts' mantra of financial small ball. Basically it would be
like Ricketts firing himself.
#Post#: 482613--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: Reb Date: November 17, 2023, 7:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=CUBluejays link=topic=630.msg482606#msg482606
date=1700262543]
Just to be clear, Hoyer took over a team that made the playoffs
for 5 years. Tanked the team and didn’t get 1 top 10 prospect
in baseball and has pushed them up to the luxury tax and has an
83 win team in a bad division to show for it.
The Brewers might tank and you can’t look at the Cubs and go
this division is theirs. How healthy or upward trajectory do
the Cubs really have? If they were in the East or West they
would be an afterthought. Goc, I’ve become Jeff.
[/quote]
A “top 10 prospect in baseball?” How often do guys like that
get traded? A very strange litmus test benchmark.
At this point, looks like Hoyer did a nice job in acquiring
prospect talent in exchange for Cubs pending free agents.
Fangraphs has Cubs at #1 in majors in its team Prospect
Rankings. Is that good enough for you?
#Post#: 482615--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: davep Date: November 17, 2023, 7:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=CUBluejays link=topic=630.msg482606#msg482606
date=1700262543]
Just to be clear, Hoyer took over a team that made the playoffs
for 5 years. Tanked the team and didn’t get 1 top 10 prospect
in baseball and has pushed them up to the luxury tax and has an
83 win team in a bad division to show for it.
The Brewers might tank and you can’t look at the Cubs and go
this division is theirs. How healthy or upward trajectory do
the Cubs really have? If they were in the East or West they
would be an afterthought. Goc, I’ve become Jeff.
[/quote]
For some reason, you seem to think that the future is next year,
and ends sometime in November, if not before. Many people would
look at the fact that the farm system is ranked as one of the
top 5 in all of baseball (and one ranked them as the best in
baseball) as a strong upward trajectory, even though many of
their top prospects are not ready to hit their peak by next
April.
You mention that Hoyer took over a team that made the playoffs
for 5 years, but for some reason didn't mention that that team
was about to have their 4 best players enter free agency in the
next two year, and that the older players such as Arietta and
Zobrist were done for, and had not been replaced.
#Post#: 482618--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: CUBluejays Date: November 17, 2023, 7:31 pm
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Swanson, the Cubs highest paid player, is a 30 year old
defensive SS with a league average bat. That doesn’t have a
great shelf life. They already wasted what is likely to be his
best year as a Cub. But f they aren’t trying to win, what is
the point of signing him?
Hoyer decided the tank was done. The team wasn’t in a 2014
place where the talent was coming. You can be me and think that
it was stopped to sell tickets and Marquee subscriptions or
because it was the right baseball move. The Cubs have a limited
pathway to get from 83 wins to better. The farm system isn’t
going to lift them. Hoyer choose a tank instead of keeping part
of the car, he should have finished it.
#Post#: 482622--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: JeffH Date: November 17, 2023, 7:41 pm
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Bubba, the fucking "car" was broken. Every single part pf it.
Which part would you have salvaged?
#Post#: 482624--------------------------------------------------
Re: Hot Stove
By: CUBluejays Date: November 17, 2023, 7:45 pm
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Keep tanking. The Cubs would have been better offf. Now it is
a Hail Mary to sign Ohtani.
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