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       #Post#: 42079--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: davep Date: November 8, 2011, 9:18 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Please feel free to place me on ignore.  It was presumptuous of
       me to advance ideas that are contrary to yours.
       #Post#: 42081--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: Jes Beard Date: November 8, 2011, 9:30 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I would have had no problem with the Cubs getting rid of
       Zambrano after punching Barrett.... though the team was far
       better off for getting rid of Barrett.
       And his behavior at other times has also been out of line, but
       the suspension last year, for a relatively minor dugout rant
       seemed a bit excessive, though when combined with an insistence
       that the learn how to control his temper seemed to make some
       sense (even if it would have made more sense to have him having
       already done that in the off season).
       But the restricted list this season for cleaning out his locker
       and essentially talking to himself about retiring (no teammate
       was present and he was talking to no one with the Cubs) seemed a
       bit absurd.  I suspect he could have filed and won a grievance
       over it.
       I wonder what the folks complaining about Zambrano would have
       said if they had Al Kaline on their team when Kaline got mad
       after striking out and slammed his bat in the dugout and broke
       his arm.... or if they had Ron Santo get mad and try to strangle
       his manager, needing to be restrained by his teammates.
       [quote author=JeffH link=topic=62.msg42072#msg42072
       date=1320802391]
       I trust our baseball operations leadership to make the right
       decision.
       [/quote]
       .... until you don't.
       Just remember that the baseball leadership we have now is the
       same leadership which allowed Red Sox players to drink in the
       clubhouse during games and allowed the entire team to slip away
       from Francona during one of the game's historic collapses.
       [quote author=davep link=topic=62.msg42079#msg42079
       date=1320808699]
       Please feel free to place me on ignore.  It was presumptuous of
       me to advance ideas that are contrary to yours.
       [/quote]
       While tico has a fair number of posts, you might actually have
       to look fairly hard to find anything that would resembling an
       original idea from him.
       #Post#: 42082--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: Deeg Date: November 8, 2011, 9:32 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       And again, ask Barrett about those temper tantrums.  What Z did
       to him is one of the most vile and disgusting things a teammate
       has done to another in recent memory.  And Hendry letting him
       get away with it was a sure sign that he was jumping the shark
       hard.
       #Post#: 42083--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: davep Date: November 8, 2011, 9:36 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I know that Barrett and Zambrano had a fight in the dugout, but
       I heard nothing more about it.  What is the real story?
       #Post#: 42085--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: Jes Beard Date: November 8, 2011, 9:43 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I don't know....  but it was vile and disgusting.
       #Post#: 42094--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: Deeg Date: November 9, 2011, 1:06 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Barrett made an error, Z showed him up in the dugout, they went
       down the tunnel shouting at each other and Z sucker punched
       Barrett in the face and put him in the hospital.
       #Post#: 42098--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: Santo4HofF Date: November 9, 2011, 5:16 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Cliff Floyd told the story of the fight last week on MLB radio.
       He said he came out of the training room and Z was pacing yhe
       club house with his shirt off ranting how he was going to kill
       Barret. Barret came into the locker room to talk to Z. Cliff
       told Barret that if Z starts throwing punches you are on your
       own.  Well the fight was one sided with Michael bloodied.
       Teamates showed up and asked Cliff why he didn't try to break it
       up. Cliff told them he didn't want his a.. kicked too.
       #Post#: 42105--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: Jes Beard Date: November 9, 2011, 7:59 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Deeg link=topic=62.msg42094#msg42094
       date=1320822412]
       Barrett made an error, Z showed him up in the dugout, they went
       down the tunnel shouting at each other and Z sucker punched
       Barrett in the face and put him in the hospital.
       [/quote]
       How do you "sucker punch" someone in the face?
       What does it mean to "sucker punch" someone?
       I always took it to mean to catch someone completely off guard,
       catching them with a punch which they did not see coming, and
       could not have anticipated.
       But you have described a situation in which Zambrano hit
       Barrett, in the face, and after they had been shouting at each
       other and left the dugout.
       My memory of Barrett is that his eyes were right there in the
       front of his face, meaning he would have been able to see any
       punch thrown to his face, and anyone being shouted at by another
       person, and who effectively "steps outside" with that shouting
       person so they are out of sight of others would really have to
       be pretty slow to be very surprised if the shouts escalated to
       violence.
       Any chance, Deeg, that you might have some general hostility
       toward Zambrano coloring your description of what happened....
       particularly that reference to "sucker punched"?
  HTML http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sucker+punch
       sucker punch
       n
       1. a sudden surprise punch, esp from behind
       #Post#: 42137--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: davep Date: November 9, 2011, 11:00 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       If Zambrano hit Barrett with no warning, that would certainly be
       a "sucker punch".  Is that how Cliff described it?  If so,
       Zambrano should have been suspended for the rest of the year,
       and expelled forever, if it happened again.
       Did Zambrano ever do it again, or was that a one time thing?
       #Post#: 42178--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Hot Stove 2011
       By: Jes Beard Date: November 9, 2011, 4:18 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       dave, if you and I are facing each other, and I am yelling at
       you, and your eyes are open, I might well be described as
       punching you without provocation, but it can't really qualify as
       a "sucker punch."  And that is not just my definition.  It is
       the commonly accepted definition for the phrase.
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