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#Post#: 426583--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: craig Date: March 10, 2021, 9:36 pm
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Great discussion, guys. I really appreciate the thoughts and
insights.
[quote author=Reb link=topic=573.msg426577#msg426577
date=1615428050]
As to Craig’s point, service time manipulation is not “within
the contract.” If it was, the teams would just say player x is
being sent down so we can control the player through 2024 or
whenever. They don’t admit to that because it would breach the
contract. Otherwise, they would have no problem saying what Dave
said in his posts. But, they come up with unconvincing
“baseball-related” reasons. Not a coincidence"[/quote]
That's an interesting argument. Again, I'd never thought of it
like that, so thanks. I had just assumed everybody knew this
was a thing, it was obvious for obvious reasons, and for most of
the dozen cba's since FA that union leaderships had accepted it
and not considered it worth negotiating away. Normally when
guys get sent down, the team doesn't rationalize why, unless
asked in a press conference. I guess until your explanation,
I'd perhaps naively assumed everybody who really cared or
thought about things understood this was a thing, and that the
occasional verbiage in a press conference was maybe more for
unsophisticated fans who didn't realize it was a thing, rather
than to deceive the union who obviously understood it was a
thing. But yeah, the idea that it wasn't to actually confuse or
deceive anybody, unsophisticated fans or union, but was just to
avoid cba violation and legal culpability is an insightful take
on it.
[quote author=Reb link=topic=573.msg426577#msg426577
date=1615428050]Teams didn’t do this much until about 10 years
ago. My hunch is that has to do with all the super-competitive
Ivy Leagues types running clubs who simply realize that a
cost-benefit analysis tells us that a full year of control is
worth one month in AAA. Even the old school anti-union types of
years ago didn’t stoop to this. They thought baseball more than
cost/benefit.[/quote]
That's an interesting observation, reb. I wonder how true it
actually is, though? Hasn't this been a thing forever? It's
maybe just been more talked about now than in past?
-A lifetime ago I lived in Pittsburgh when Barry Bonds, Bobby
Bonilla, Andy Van Slyke, Doug Drabek, John Smiley, and Jay Bell
were young. I was young and even more unsophisticated then, so
when I heard some friends who were smart sophisticated big
Pirates talking about this, I'd never thought of it before. I
assume if they talked about it, management probably had too? 30
years ago.
Last millenium Kerry Wood had a spectacular camp, but went down.
Geramis Gonzalez, Terry Mulholland, Ben Van Ryn, and Amaury
Telemaco made the staff, two of them in the rotation. Wood had
a single start for Iowa, then debuted April 12. Wasn't that all
the same thing?
I guess I'm kinda wondering whether this hasn't been around for
≥30 years, and teams and union both haven't been both
fully aware?
I'm sure the union leadership never liked it, but were they
unaware? Yet for a dozen cbas, the union leadership never
negotiated it away.
#Post#: 426588--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: Reb Date: March 10, 2021, 11:59 pm
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When Kerry Wood didn’t make the opening day club in 1998, I
remember a manager of another club—who saw him in spring
training— say: well, I think the Cubs probably will win the
pennant because if they a full rotation better than than this
Kerry Wood guy, there’s no stopping them. Of course, the manager
was being sarcastic...but I don’t recall the union making a
stink about it. Maybe it was because Wood was 20 years old and
there was way less public attention given to top prospects back
then compared to now. It just wasn’t a practice yet to
manipulate service time in an obvious way. And, as I said
earlier, we have a different type of GM and top staff running
things these days. More bottom line, I think. If there’s an
opening, they take it.
#Post#: 426590--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: craig Date: March 11, 2021, 12:12 am
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Yeah, your Wood recall is just like mine. I assumed then that
everybody understood it was a service-time thing. But you're
right, nobody made a fuss about it; it wasn't an issue that the
union and the media talked about as is so true today. We fully
agree that the practice wasn't discussed and faulted then the
way it is today. I guess I'm less certain that it wasn't
actually practiced about as much, or almost so, but it just
didn't get the publicity or complaint?
#Post#: 426591--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: Reb Date: March 11, 2021, 12:49 am
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Think more noteworthy these days in part because of the
obsession with prospects generally. We know a lot more now. In
1998 with guys like Kerry Wood, mostly Baseball America.
#Post#: 426594--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: Deeg Date: March 11, 2021, 2:46 am
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Wood was also a wildman then (even more so than he was later) -
131 BB in 151 IP in 1997 - and a reasonable case could be made
that he could use some AAA time to hone his command.
#Post#: 426597--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: CUBluejays Date: March 11, 2021, 6:02 am
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I don’t think it was the same.
Barry Bonds played 71 games at A ball and 44 games at AAA before
he was called up.
With Wood I remember being surprised that he was called up after
1 start at AAA in 1998, because I was hoping to see him pitch at
Iowa.
Both guys debuted when they were 21. Bryant debuted at 23. I
think the difference is guys where debuting at younger ages and
there was still development left at the major league level. Guys
are left in the minors until they are pretty much a complete
product so the service time being pushed back is a bigger deal.
#Post#: 426607--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: JeffH Date: March 11, 2021, 9:58 am
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Kyle Hendricks starting today for the Cubs, with Jason Adam, Rex
Brothers, Brendon Little, Trevor Megill, Shelby Miller and James
Norwood available behind him. - Jordan Bastian
Other than Hendricks, this is going to be a high velocity day.
#Post#: 426614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: CUBluejays Date: March 11, 2021, 11:00 am
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Is it on Marquee?
#Post#: 426616--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: JeffH Date: March 11, 2021, 11:08 am
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No, it's the Rockies' TV feed through MLB TV.
#Post#: 426621--------------------------------------------------
Re: Today's Game - 2021
By: CUBluejays Date: March 11, 2021, 11:40 am
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BOOOOOOOOO
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