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#Post#: 29948--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: CurtOne Date: August 25, 2011, 5:22 pm
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Sorry, br and craig, I just don't accept this argument about
going down to the minors to learn how to manage. The number of
great managers who went that route are few and far between.
Gardenhire may be the only one I can think of at the moment.
For years this was the argument used against Blacks. Dese black
folk just don't have the essentials...I think that's how it was
put. There was an implication that they didn't have the work
ethic to go to the minors and learn their craft. Meanwhile
white guys were using the good old boys network to land prime
coaching and managing jobs.
The only concern I would have for someone like Ryno was whether
he had the temperament to tolerate some of the things we see the
Cubs doing. Any of us on this board could manage a team and
probably win 50 games. A HOF player who has seen baseball
inside and out for as long as Sandberg doesn't really need to go
to the minors to learn how to ride a bus or fill out a
scorecard. That's the crap you hand someone when you're
stalling. And Sandberg called his bluff and went and did it.
End of story.
So, this nonsense about expecting a job after only 4 years in
the minors? Lots of managers, most of the great ones as a
matter of fact, never smelt a minor league locker room.
There may be solid reasons why Ryno shouldn't manage the Cubs.
I'm still not convinced that I'd want to see it, but you'll have
to do better than the swill you're serving.
#Post#: 29949--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: Ron Date: August 25, 2011, 5:42 pm
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This is getting serious. I think this may be the third time
Curt and I are in basic agreement in as many (or fewer) days.
Should I be worried? Or should he?
#Post#: 29951--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: Deeg Date: August 25, 2011, 5:55 pm
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No to Colletti. He's the one name I've seen that holds no
attraction at all.
#Post#: 29954--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: Jes Beard Date: August 25, 2011, 6:16 pm
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[quote author=CurtOne link=topic=57.msg29948#msg29948
date=1314310923]
Sorry, br and craig, I just don't accept this argument about
going down to the minors to learn how to manage. The number of
great managers who went that route are few and far between.
Gardenhire may be the only one I can think of at the moment.
[/quote]
Well, according to their wikipedia entries, that number would
seem to include the following:
Earl Weaver: Weaver started his minor league managerial career
in 1956 with the unaffiliated Knoxville Smokies in the South
Atlantic League. He joined the Orioles in 1957 as skipper of
their Fitzgerald club in the Georgia-Florida League. The Orioles
moved him to their Dublin, Georgia franchise in 1958, and to
their Aberdeen, South Dakota club in 1959. 1960 found Weaver in
Wisconsin managing the Fox Cities Foxes in the Class B Three-I
League. He moved up to with the AA Elmira Pioneers in 1962 and
to the AAA Rochester Red Wings in 1966.
As a minor league pilot, he compiled a record of 841 wins and
697 defeats (.547) with three championships in 11½ seasons. He
was promoted to the Orioles as their first-base coach in 1968,
and spent a half-season in that role before taking the
managerial reins in July.
Tommy Lasorda Lasorda's first off-field assignment with the
Dodgers was as a scout from 1961–65. In 1966, he became the
manager for the Pocatello Chiefs in the rookie leagues, then
managed the Ogden Dodgers to three Pioneer League championships
from 1966–68. He became the Dodgers AAA Pacific Coast League
manager in 1969 with the Spokane Indians (1969–71) and remained
in the position when the Dodgers switched their AAA farm club to
the Albuquerque Dukes (1972). His 1972 Dukes team won the PCL
Championship. Lasorda was also a manager for the Dominican
Winter Baseball League team Tigres del Licey (Licey Tigers). He
led the team to the 1973 Caribbean World Series Title in
Venezuela with a series record of 5 wins and 1 loss.
Tony LaRussa The White Sox gave La Russa his first managerial
opportunity in 1978 by naming him skipper of their Double-A
affiliate, the Knoxville Sox of the Southern League. La Russa
spent only a half-season at Knoxville before being promoted to
the White Sox coaching staff when owner Bill Veeck changed
managers from Bob Lemon to Larry Doby. But Doby struggled in the
managerial role and was fired at the end of the season; Don
Kessinger, former star shortstop of the crosstown Cubs, was
named the White Sox' player-manager for 1979, and La Russa was
demoted to manager of the Triple-A Iowa Oaks of the American
Association.
But Kessinger was not the answer, either. The ChiSox were only
46–60 when he was fired and La Russa was summoned from Iowa,
two-thirds of the way through the 1979 season.
Bobby Cox -- Cox began his managerial career in the Yankees
farm system in 1971. In 1976, he led the Syracuse Chiefs to the
Governor's Cup title. This team featured such future major
leaguers as Ron Guidry, Mickey Klutts, Terry Whitfield and Juan
Bernhardt. Overall, Cox had a highly successful six-year tenure
as a minor league manager, compiling a record of 459 wins and
387 defeats (.543) with two league championships. He then spent
the 1977 season as the first base coach on Billy Martin's staff
with the World Series-winning Yankees before beginning his MLB
managerial career.
Jim Leyland -- Leyland then served as a coach for the Rocky
Mount Leafs in the first half of the 1971 season before
receiving his first managerial experience with the Bristol
Tigers the same season. He managed for 11 seasons at the minor
league level in the Tigers organization (1971–81), advancing to
the postseason six times and claiming his respective league
championship three times. Leyland was selected as the manager of
the year in the Florida State League in both 1977 and 1978 with
the Lakeland Tigers; and in the American Association in 1979
with the Evansville Triplets.
Leyland left the Tigers organization for the first time in 1982
when he became Tony La Russa's third base coach for four seasons
(1982–85) with the Chicago White Sox, including the team's 1983
AL West division title, before being named the 33rd manager in
Pittsburgh Pirates history on November 20, 1985.
Walter Alston -- After returning to the minor leagues for
several years as a player and then as a manager – including a
stint as the player-manager for the first U.S.-based integrated
baseball team after 1898, the Nashua Dodgers of the class-B New
England League – he was named manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers
for the 1954 season.
Gene Mauch -- He first became a manager at age 27 in 1953, when
the Braves named him the player-manager of their AA Atlanta
Crackers farm team in the Southern Association. From 1954-57,
Mauch was strictly a player, first for the Pacific Coast League
Los Angeles Angels, then the Red Sox. In 1958-59, he managed the
Bosox' AAA affiliate, the Minneapolis Millers of the American
Association, reaching the Junior World Series as American
Association champion each season, and winning the 1958 JWS
championship. He was slated to begin a third season as the
Millers' boss in 1960 when, in mid-April, just prior to the
start of the American Association's season, the Phillies chose
him to replace Eddie Sawyer, who had resigned after the club's
opening game of the regular season.
Ralph Houk -- Houk's last years as an active player were
actually spent as the Yankees' full-time bullpen coach, thus
beginning his managerial apprenticeship. In 1955, he was named
manager of the Yanks' AAA affiliate, the Denver Bears of the
American Association. Following three highly successful seasons
at Denver, Houk returned to the Bronx as Stengel's first-base
coach from 1958 to 1960. From late May through early June 1960,
Houk served as acting manager of the Yanks for 13 games while
Stengel, 70, was sidelined by illness. (The team won 7 and lost
6.) Then, after the Yanks lost the 1960 World Series to the
Pittsburgh Pirates — and with Houk one of the hottest managerial
candidates in baseball — the Yankees "discharged" Stengel (to
use Stengel's own words) and promoted Houk.
Dick WIlliams -- On October 14, 1964, after a season during
which Williams hit a career-low .159, the Red Sox gave him his
unconditional release. At 35, Williams was at a career
crossroads: Richards gave him a spring training invitation but
no guarantee that he would make the 1965 Astros' playing roster;
the Red Sox offered Williams a job as playing coach with their
Triple-A farm team, the Seattle Rainiers of the Pacific Coast
League. Looking to begin a post-playing career in baseball,
Williams accepted the Seattle assignment. Within days, a shuffle
in 1965 affiliations forced Boston to move its top minor league
team to the Toronto Maple Leafs of the International League.
This caused Boston's Triple-A manager, Edo Vanni, a Seattle
native, to resign in order to remain in the Pacific Northwest.
With an unexpected opening for the new Toronto job, Williams was
promoted to manager of the 1965 Leafs. As a novice pilot,
Williams adopted a hard-nosed, disciplinarian style and won two
consecutive Governors' Cup championships with teams laden with
young Red Sox prospects. He then signed a one-year contract to
manage the 1967 Red Sox.
Sparky Anderson -- In 1964, at the age of 30, Anderson accepted
Cooke's offer to manage the Leafs. He later handled minor league
clubs at the Class A and Double-A levels, including a season
(1968) in the Reds' minor league system.
During this period, he managed a pennant winner in four
consecutive seasons: 1965 with the Rock Hill Cardinals of the
Western Carolinas League, 1966 with the St. Petersburg Cardinals
of the Florida State League, 1967 with the Modesto Reds of the
California League and 1968 with the Asheville Tourists of the
Southern League. It was during the 1966 season that Sparky's
club lost to Miami 4–3 in 29 innings, which remains the longest
pro game played (by innings) without interruption.[5]
He made his way back to the majors in 1969 as the third-base
coach of the San Diego Padres during their maiden season in the
National League. Just after the 1969 season ended, California
Angels manager Lefty Phillips, who as a Dodger scout had signed
the teenaged Anderson to his first professional contract,[6]
named Anderson to his 1970 coaching staff.
I mean other than those bums, I can't think of any. All of
those guys are in the top 20 in all-time wins, and the only
other managers on that top 20 list all ended their careers by
1956, with the exception of Casey Stengel (who managed in the
minors before reaching the Yankees, after having started as a
major league manager and getting fired a couple of times and
then built a name for himself as a minor league manager) and Joe
Torre, who started as one of the last player managers.
So, yea, other than those guys, I guess there haven't been any
good major league managers who came up thru the minors.
#Post#: 29958--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: JeffH Date: August 25, 2011, 6:47 pm
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Just get the GM hire right. Load up on talent and even a dopey
field manager can win.
#Post#: 29965--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: StrikeZone Date: August 25, 2011, 7:11 pm
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Ned Colletti is probably getting mentioned because of his past
relationship with the Chicago media (he was in PR when he worked
for the Cubs previously) more than anything.
He certainly doesn't fit the description that Tom Ricketts threw
out during his initial press conference.
I wonder if Colletti's old pals are floating his name in order
to try to pressure Ricketts to give him an interview.
#Post#: 29967--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: Reb Date: August 25, 2011, 7:37 pm
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As far as managing in the minors, it's kind of a mixed bag.
Earl Weaver managed 10 years in the minors. Casey Stengel and
Bobby Cox each managed 5 or 6 years in the minors. Jim
Leyland--many minor league years of course.
A number of great managers did not get this kind of seasoning.
Have no clue whatsoever if Ryno would be a good manager or not
but I think he's a bit of a risk for the new GM to hire. Maybe
it's a good risk.
#Post#: 29971--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: Jes Beard Date: August 25, 2011, 7:56 pm
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Reb, as I pointed out, other than Joe Torre, or guys who were
managing in the majors more than 70 years ago, EVERY manager on
the list of top 20 winningest managers managed in the minors.
Saying it is a "mixed bag" does not seem close to accurate.
#Post#: 29984--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: CurtOne Date: August 25, 2011, 9:32 pm
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Ron and Reb, thanks for the comments. I'm sure that are dozens
of great managers who did time in the minors. Currently I can
only think of Gardenhire, but there were lot of great ones in
the past like Stengel and Weaver. My response to br and craig
was in response to their implication that 4 years in the minors
was insufficient to expect a serious interview. Few HOFers
would have endured the minors for 4 years, and I doubt many HOF
players have. Ryno may one day be a first.
#Post#: 29986--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
By: StrikeZone Date: August 25, 2011, 9:44 pm
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I would like the new GM to replace the entire coaching staff,
regardless of who he (or she, Curt) hires to be the manager.
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