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#Post#: 34976--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: craig
Date: September 25, 2011, 9:41 pm
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That may be true, reb, but I'm not sure a lot of GM's are real
motivated to go after guys whose upside is to be average. Might
be a team who has a real hole at SS and is looking for a #9
hitter to be anti-awful.
But usually if you're trading, you're looking for a guy who you
think might be above-average. At least if you're going to give
up anything meaningful.
#Post#: 34977--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: craig
Date: September 25, 2011, 9:51 pm
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I still think that a lot of the Cub stuff comes down to having a
poor farm system. You don't win WS when you're big production
for the past 8 years has been Randy Wells and Casey Coleman for
starting pitching, and other than Castro the position studs have
been Barney, Theriot, Colvin, and Soto.
You've got to produce some meaningful young talent if you want
to trade for some meaningfully good non-old players. (Lee for
Garza; Choi for Lee; Hanley Ramirez....) You'd like to develop
some of your own WS-caliber stars. Hopefully Castro is going to
turn into that. But I'm not sure that Flaherty or Jackson or
Lemahieu or Vitters seem on that path. (Hope I'm undervaluing
them.)
I'm not sure how Boston's been doing in that area lately, which
might contribute to why they're struggling right now and have a
bunch of overpayed stuff.
But one of the creative things they've done is to commit a bunch
of money to international procurement and draft. So despite
being at the back of the drafts this decade, they've been
spending every year like the Cubs only started doing this year.
Not sure if it's worked for them, but that's been something
pretty intentional on Epstein's part.
#Post#: 34978--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: ben
Date: September 25, 2011, 9:52 pm
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Jes, since you question the contention that the Red Sox were
"thinking differently" when they hired Epstein, I'll say "thanks
for the fat one" and offer a couple items:
* Red Sox had been employing a rather average-profile GM before
Epstein...a baseball "lifer" who had played some professional
baseball and had a relatively "old-school" approach...the Red
Sox replaced their GM with THE YOUNGEST GM in the HISTORY of
MLB, Theo Epstein, who was a 28-year old Yale grad (and lawyer)
who had NEVER played baseball!
* Epstein had a VERY different approach from his successor as he
relied HEAVILY on sabermetric principles, which the Red Sox had
not done in the past, in his activities leading up to the 2003
season and thereafter.
I'd say the above classifies as "thinking differently." I'd
wonder if East, who follows the Red Sox far more closely than I,
would agree?
#Post#: 34980--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: Eastcoastfan
Date: September 25, 2011, 10:02 pm
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They also had the cajones to fire their manager after a 90+ win
season and a trip to the ALCS.
#Post#: 34981--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: StrikeZone
Date: September 25, 2011, 10:20 pm
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--- Quote from: Eastcoastfan link ---
>
> They also had the cajones to fire their manager after a 90+
win season and a trip to the ALCS.
>
--- End Quote ---
Who later went on to win the World Series with the Phillies.
(unless I'm confusing Charlie Manuel with someone else)
#Post#: 34982--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: Jes Beard
Date: September 25, 2011, 10:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: ben link ---
>
> Jes, since you question the contention that the Red Sox were
"thinking differently" when they hired Epstein, I'll say "thanks
for the fat one" and offer a couple items:
>
> * Red Sox had been employing a rather average-profile GM
before Epstein...a baseball "lifer" who had played some
professional baseball and had a relatively "old-school"
approach...the Red Sox replaced their GM with THE YOUNGEST GM in
the HISTORY of MLB, Theo Epstein, who was a 28-year old Yale
grad (and lawyer) who had NEVER played baseball!
>
> * Epstein had a VERY different approach from his successor as
he relied HEAVILY on sabermetric principles, which the Red Sox
had not done in the past, in his activities leading up to the
2003 season and thereafter.
>
> I'd say the above classifies as "thinking differently." I'd
wonder if East, who follows the Red Sox far more closely than I,
would agree?
>
--- End Quote ---
I didn't suggest that they had not been "thinking differently."
I simply asked for examples, and your first attempt was, well,
exceedingly lame.
And hiring Theo, regardless his age or lack of playing
experience, is also not exactly "thinking differently." Bill
Veeck never played. Brian Cashman never played beyond high
school. John Holland, GM of the Cubs for 18 years never played.
That leaves relying "relied HEAVILY on sabermetric principles"
as the required "'thinking differently' in order to get
different results."
And I have to disagree. You can think the same and execute
better and get very different results, or you can think
differently (even if an a sabermetric mode) and get the same
results.
I am NOT saying I want a GM how ignores sabermetric evaluations.
And I am NOT saying I want a GM who thinks the same as Hendry,
but simply executes better.
All I am saying is that the idea that you need someone who
"thinks differently" in order to get different results makes
little sense, and that increased reliance on sabermetric
evaluation is no longer thinking particularly outside of the
box.
#Post#: 34983--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: Nathan Byers
Date: September 25, 2011, 10:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: StrikeZone link ---
>
> Who later went on to win the World Series with the Phillies.
>
> (unless I'm confusing Charlie Manuel with someone else)
>
--- End Quote ---
Grady Little
#Post#: 34984--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: StrikeZone
Date: September 25, 2011, 10:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Oh, right.
I knew it was a white headed old guy.
They all look alike to me.
#Post#: 34987--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: ben
Date: September 25, 2011, 11:30 pm
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Ok, Jes, you have your opinion and i'll continue with mine:
Epstein represented a HUGE difference - and thought VERY
differently - for the Red Sox in 2003...and that's a KEY reason
the Red Sox got VERY different results than they had int he
past.
While sabermetrics certainly isn't exactly ground-breaking
today, I'll continue to hope our new baseball leadership uses
sabermetrics far better than predecessors in the Cub front
office and that our new leadership does otherwise think
differently and better than in the past.
#Post#: 34990--------------------------------------------------
Re: Next GM for the Cubs
DIR By: Cubsin
Date: September 25, 2011, 11:39 pm
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--- Quote from: Reb link ---
>
>
> The median team OPS at SS in the NL this season is about .670.
(2B is .695). Barney's OPS is .670.
>
--- End Quote ---
It seems to me that Barney's defense, baseball IQ and
baserunning are at least close to being worth .025 OPS points.
Blaming the Cubs' inablility to score more runs because of
Barney seems unfair, when Soto and Pena are struggling to hit
their weight. Soriano is lighter, but his BA is in the same
area. Pena walks a lot, but walks seldom drive in runs.
Soriano=Pena=Kingman.
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