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#Post#: 176559--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: Pekin
Date: April 19, 2014, 10:24 am
---------------------------------------------------------
HTML http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/19/western-lawmakers-strategize-on-taking-control-federal-lands/
Officials from nine Western states met in Salt Lake City on
Friday to discuss taking control of federal lands within their
borders on the heels of a standoff between Nevada rancher Cliven
Bundy and the Bureau of Land Management.
The lawmakers and county commissioners discussed ways to
wresting oil-, timber- and mineral-rich lands away from the
feds. Utah House Speaker Becky Lockhart said it was in the works
before this month's standoff.
#Post#: 176560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: 46
Date: April 19, 2014, 10:43 am
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Jackie - Thanks. With the exception of the Yak, I as kid built
models of all those, Sturmovik included. If you haven't, I
strongly encourage all to visit the museium at wright patterson
in Dayton. Its free, and its,its fricking huge! Two things
shocked me about the exhibits as an old geezer. 1. - All that
stuff, up until the 50's looks flimsy to say the least. 2.-
People back then were very,very, small. Everything was streched
to crazy until you die. fyi also, if you go to mudd island in
memphis tn, you'll see the memphis belle, a b-17 bomber the
likes of which went down over Germany in droves. Kids still got
in them, still bombed europe.
#Post#: 176561--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: davep
Date: April 19, 2014, 10:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: WshflThinking link ---
>
> I think its partially correct. What then happened was the
state was created it passed to the state, then things get dicy.
When this conservation crap got going in the 90's the Feds took
over management again which is the time when he stopped paying
usage rights. He says he was paying grazing rights to the state
until it turned the land over to the Feds. Since then he has had
this agency then that agency down on his back since. Other
ranchers have had trouble with all the Fed rules.
>
--- End Quote ---
Did the state pass the land over to the Feds, or did the Feds
just take it against thier will?
#Post#: 176562--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: WshflThinking
Date: April 19, 2014, 10:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Bravo, finally somebody with the right attitude, its long
overdue. Get it done soon.
#Post#: 176563--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: WshflThinking
Date: April 19, 2014, 11:01 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: davep link ---
>
> Did the state pass the land over to the Feds, or did the Feds
just take it against thier will?
>
--- End Quote ---
I am not real sure of that. I remember reading something on that
but don't remember for sure what I read. I imagine it was the
Feds taking back from the states. I doubt the state objected
much because they didn't have to spend money. But now since all
the problems have come up its time for the states to take back
control. I've seen 2 figures about how much the Feds control in
Nevada. One report said 81% and another said 87%. That's just
unreal. Utah is much the same way.
We have similar problems here where I live. You cant do this and
you cant do that without a permit. Getting a permit might take
years. Too much beurocracy, red tape, and government
interference.
#Post#: 176566--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: davep
Date: April 19, 2014, 12:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It makes a great deal of difference to the legal rights in the
case. If the land does indeed belong to the Federal Government,
they have every right to collect the fees and to manage the
land.
Since the family has already lost the case three times, and
since they never actually spell out their legal rights, it is
reasonable to assume that they are in the wrong.
#Post#: 176567--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: WshflThinking
Date: April 19, 2014, 12:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I am not in disagreement that they are in the wrong for not
paying the Federal fees. Its my belief that they claim their
land and grazing rights go back to the days when it was under
state control and jurisdiction, like a preexisting condition, or
kinda like the old Spanish land grants. Bundy was paying the
grazing fees to the state prior to the Feds taking over.
I think this movement to reacquire states rights to this Federal
land, if it takes hold, will stop all this problem Bundy is
having. Other ranchers have also had their share of problems
with BLM, and other Federal agencies
#Post#: 176568--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: Jes Beard
Date: April 19, 2014, 1:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Keysbear link ---
>
> Too late. Too many people including the newly indoctrinated
youth care little for individual rights and liberty. They don't
care how intrusive government is as long as they are getting
free stuff from that same government. Too bad they won't realize
until it's too late that is isn't really free and what they've
lost will never be regained.
>
--- End Quote ---
And you base that conclusion on.... what?
#Post#: 176570--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: Keysbear
Date: April 19, 2014, 1:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Election results...Obama lied about a lot of things but his
intentions to expand the power and reach of the government was
clear for all to see and yet he was re-elected.
#Post#: 176571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Politics, Religion, etc. (4.15.14 - 9.10.15)
DIR By: Jes Beard
Date: April 19, 2014, 1:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Pekin link ---
>
>
HTML http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/19/western-lawmakers-strategize-on-taking-control-federal-lands/
>
> Officials from nine Western states met in Salt Lake City on
Friday to discuss taking control of federal lands within their
borders on the heels of a standoff between Nevada rancher Cliven
Bundy and the Bureau of Land Management.
>
> The lawmakers and county commissioners discussed ways to
wresting oil-, timber- and mineral-rich lands away from the
feds. Utah House Speaker Becky Lockhart said it was in the works
before this month's standoff.
>
--- End Quote ---
Considering that each of those nine states began as federal
territory and were created by the federal government, trying to
harken back state claims to the 1800's might not be the best
route to go.
--- Quote from: WshflThinking link ---
>
> I am not in disagreement that they are in the wrong for not
paying the Federal fees. Its my belief that they claim their
land and grazing rights go back to the days when it was under
state control and jurisdiction, like a preexisting condition, or
kinda like the old Spanish land grants. Bundy was paying the
grazing fees to the state prior to the Feds taking over.
>
> I think this movement to reacquire states rights to this
Federal land, if it takes hold, will stop all this problem Bundy
is having. Other ranchers have also had their share of problems
with BLM, and other Federal agencies
>
--- End Quote ---
Pointing out that the federal government is unreasonable,
overreaching, and in general an institutional asshole, does
nothing to strengthen Bundy's legal claim.
If you are renting property from a landowner or paying a
mortgage to a mortgage-holder who then sells or transfers
ownership of that property or mortgage and you continue making
your payments to the old landowner or mortgage holder and pay
nothing to the new one, you are an idiot and deserve to be
forcibly removed. It sounds as if Bundy is essentially claiming
that is what he did.
--- Quote from: davep link ---
>
> Did the state pass the land over to the Feds, or did the Feds
just take it against thier will?
>
--- End Quote ---
If the feds took the land improperly, the state should have
litigated the issue in the courts, and if they failed to do so,
that pretty much closes the issue. But any dispute on that
question would be between the state and the Feds, not between
Bundy and the Feds.
--- Quote from: WshflThinking link ---
>
> I am not real sure of that. I remember reading something on
that but don't remember for sure what I read. I imagine it was
the Feds taking back from the states. I doubt the state objected
much because they didn't have to spend money. But now since all
the problems have come up its time for the states to take back
control. I've seen 2 figures about how much the Feds control in
Nevada. One report said 81% and another said 87%. That's just
unreal. Utah is much the same way.
>
> We have similar problems here where I live. You cant do this
and you cant do that without a permit. Getting a permit might
take years. Too much beurocracy, red tape, and government
interference.
>
--- End Quote ---
As a matter of public policy I no more want the government in
the business of owning, leasing, preserving or developing land
than I want it in the business of lending money, building cars,
making shoes, providing health care, running gambling casinos,
or providing education. Increasingly, however, the federal
government IS doing all of those, except making shoes... and I
am sure that before too long some good progressive will advocate
doing just that.
But none of that is really at issue in the Bundy case.
Does the federal government own too much land in Neveda? Sure.
But I would say that if the federal government only owned a
single acre. At the same time, as I pointed out above, these
states are creatures of the federal government. The idea that
the federal government still owns and directly controls large
areas of them should not surprise anyone.
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