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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 25803--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: guest657
Date: February 12, 2019, 9:25 am
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Billy is two.
There are a lot of excellent reasons not to take a 2 year old
into a nursing home or hospital room where someone is dying. Not
only the chance if the kid catching something, but the kid
spreading something. Or screaming. Or grabbing things they
should not.
Even a well-minded toddler is more like bringing a year-old
Labrador along than like a school-aged child. It isn't going to
benefit the toddler in any way. And depending on the condition
of the patient, it probably wouldn't benefit them either.
The reason someone verbalizes is not always the only -- or the
primary -- reason for their actions. It's the reason they are
willing to say out loud in front of whoever may be listening.
If Dad is grieving the recent loss of his own father (and coping
with however long that illness went on, and however much
caregiving he's doing for his mom, grandpa, and other
relatives), then their household is under a large amount of
emotional stress. He may be checked out and needing her to
support him instead of offering to help with Billy.
Nobody in this situation is going to be performing for the
Olympic Parenting Committee. They're just trying to get through
the day.
If Billy is like my kids and does not sleep well, all the stuff
about sleeping in the nursery and eating early makes complete
sense.
The car and not letting Dad or anyone else keep him, is more out
of the mainstream. Then again, I once came home from a brief
outing to find my sister in law lying on the floor in floods of
tears next to my screaming baby daughter.
We also tried leaving her with my in-laws plus my dad (who had
13 grandchildren between them), and when we got back from dinner
& a movie, all 3 adults were sitting slackjawed like they'd been
stricken. It had taken them nearly four hours to get her to stop
crying, and they never offered to keep her again until she was
about three.
She's a lovely girl with no behavior problems now, but she could
break people with sheer sustained noise.
I got a lot of "Oh, just get a sitter!" And I didn't always feel
like going through the whole story, especially because people
didn't believe it.
If Sue and her husband had a rough time with Billy, and have
trouble getting sitters, they may just be riding it out until he
can talk well and sleep better.
The way people parent in the first 3 years is rarely an
indicator of the way they're going to parent for the next 15.
It's more often an indicator of what kind of baby they got
assigned, what their life circumstances have thrown them, and
how it matches up with their own temperament and coping skills.
You don't have to feel obligated to see Sue every time if you
aren't up for it, and of course if you'd rather not see her with
Billy at all you can invite her or not to whatever you want.
But to pathologize her parenting when you have no idea what
it's really like, or withdraw from the friendship because of
this imaginary "issue" is just cruel.
#Post#: 25811--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: lakey
Date: February 12, 2019, 12:08 pm
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--- Quote ---
> But to pathologize her parenting when you have no idea what
it's really like, or withdraw from the friendship because of
this imaginary "issue" is just cruel.
--- End Quote ---
I disagree with referring to this as an imaginary issue. For
whatever reason, the friendship has changed drastically. That's
not imaginary.
I also disagree with it being cruel to withdraw from a
friendship because it has changed.
Over the years I've had friendships go by the wayside because of
changes in circumstances, marriage, children, job changes,
whatever. Sometimes people just don't have anything in common
any more. It's not cruel, it's just reality.
As far as the rest of what you said, Anon4Now, you are right. We
don't know the reasoning behind the mom's parenting and it is
between her and her husband. OP's relationship with the mom has
changed and she needs to decide whether it is worth taking up
part of her limited time in Hometown with someone who is unable
to give her attention.
#Post#: 25812--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: guest657
Date: February 12, 2019, 2:10 pm
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--- Quote from: lakey link ---
>
> [quote]But to pathologize her parenting when you have no idea
what it's really like, or withdraw from the friendship because
of this imaginary "issue" is just cruel.
--- End Quote ---
I disagree with referring to this as an imaginary issue. For
whatever reason, the friendship has changed drastically. That's
not imaginary.
I also disagree with it being cruel to withdraw from a
friendship because it has changed.
Over the years I've had friendships go by the wayside because of
changes in circumstances, marriage, children, job changes,
whatever. Sometimes people just don't have anything in common
any more. It's not cruel, it's just reality.
As far as the rest of what you said, Anon4Now, you are right. We
don't know the reasoning behind the mom's parenting and it is
between her and her husband. OP's relationship with the mom has
changed and she needs to decide whether it is worth taking up
part of her limited time in Hometown with someone who is unable
to give her attention.
[/quote]
No, it's not cruel to step back if the friendship isn't meeting
OP's needs or is more high-maintenance than she's prepared for,
or any other reasons about the friendship itself.
But that is not at all the tone of the last couple of posts.
They were directly about shedding Sue as a friend because of
total speculation about her parenting style and the way they
predict she will parent in the future.
Characterizing Sue as some kind of obsessive weirdo because of
the tiny snippets OP has seen in the most intense years of new
parenting, and then rejecting her as a friend because of it --
that is what I meant would be cruel.
#Post#: 25813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: lowspark
Date: February 12, 2019, 2:50 pm
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Since one of those posts was mine, I'll just defend it by saying
that I was going on what I perceived to be the tone of the OP's
post describing Sue's parenting style. It might very well be
that Billy is somehow special needs, or that the dad is for some
reason, unable to take care of Billy on his own. But the tone of
OP's post indicates that it's more the mother's own choices, as
opposed to other circumstances.
One of the thing OP said in the first post was,
--- Quote ---
> Sue has a two year old son, Billy, who she always brings
everywhere, even when her husband (or mother) is available to
mind him.
--- End Quote ---
To me, that does not sound like husband or mother is unable or
incapable of minding Billy, but rather Sue's insistence that
they don't.
In any case, sorry for judging.
OP still has the right to determine how she wants to spend her
limited time in Home City. And regardless of the reasons for
Sue's inability to leave Billy behind for adult time, the fact
remains that OP does not find the visits with Sue to suit her
purpose at this time.
Regardless of whether Sue's parenting style is out of choice or
necessity, having children inevitably results in some changes in
your circle of friends. And the more focused Sue's attention is
on Billy, again, regardless of the reason, the more that circle
of friends is likely to change.
That's unfortunate, but there it is. And yes, in the end, Sue's
feelings might be hurt because of that. But as others noted,
friendships do change and evolve as peoples' lives change and
evolve.
#Post#: 25817--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: Jem
Date: February 12, 2019, 3:39 pm
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--- Quote from: Anon4Now link ---
>
> Characterizing Sue as some kind of obsessive weirdo because of
the tiny snippets OP has seen in the most intense years of new
parenting, and then rejecting her as a friend because of it --
that is what I meant would be cruel.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not sure I would use the phrase "rejecting her as a friend"
or characterize easing off on the friendship as cruel. I don't
think the OP would be easing off on the friendship because she
disagrees with how her friend is parenting - it would be because
the friend's parenting choices affect the friend's relationship
with the OP in negative ways. I don't think it is at all "cruel"
for the OP to spend her time with people who want to spend time
with her. I don't think it is at all "cruel" for the OP to ease
away from a friendship that is no longer bringing her joy.
#Post#: 25823--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: Lilac
Date: February 12, 2019, 4:28 pm
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I would use some of the previously suggested language about
being back in town for family reunion and to help mom; hope all
is well, catch you next time.
Then make whatever plans you wish with the other friends. If
she finds out, well, "Oh, yes, I did see Yvonne and Pilar for
lunch on Sunday; it had been years since we've had a girls
brunch out. I figured you wouldn't want to leave Billy and that
wasn't really a kid-friendly gathering. Btw did you hear that
Yvonne got her real estate license? I can just picture her doing
well at that, can't you?!" etc etc. Act like it's no big deal
and it won't be.
Can you Skype or Facetime with her after that weekend to fill
her in on your mom, how the reunion went, etc. -- so she won't
feel as left out. Or -- weird thought -- can you friends you do
want to see come to the reunion, for a quick drink at least? Or
is it just a small family group?
#Post#: 25824--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: guest657
Date: February 12, 2019, 4:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jem link ---
>
> I agree it’s best to not criticize Sue’s parenting style, but
I personally would distance myself from Sue because of it. I
would invite *Sue* to adult only events and say, “sorry you’ll
have to miss out” if she insists on bringing Billy or says she
can’t come if he isn’t welcome.
>
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote from: lowspark link ---
>
> [quote author=Jem link=topic=981.msg25795#msg25795
date=1549979665]
> I agree it’s best to not criticize Sue’s parenting style, but
I personally would distance myself from Sue because of it. I
would invite *Sue* to adult only events and say, “sorry you’ll
have to miss out” if she insists on bringing Billy or says she
can’t come if he isn’t welcome.
>
--- End Quote ---
I agree with this. It's not only that you will never be able to
socialize with Sue without Billy, it's also that Sue's attention
will always be focused on Billy, regardless of his age. I'm
guessing that even when Billy is old enough to go to school,
Billy will be all Sue wants to talk about.
[/quote]
Y'all can backpedal and loft around "oh, no judgement" all you
want to.
You said what you said. It's ignorant and mocking and
meanspirited.
This is not some kind of long-term, constant pattern. OP goes
home about 4x per year. So for the first year, Billy was an
infant. If OP wasn't timing her visits to coincide with naptime
then yes, the baby needs to be tended and fed and changed and
comforted. That is the reality of babies. And moms of infants do
tend to talk about them a lot in social situations. Especially
with their best friends that they don't see much anymore.
Because the baby is everything new and emotionally important
that is happening in their lives right now.
He's two now, so we're talking about a maximum of what, four
visits when the dynamic was "off"? And from those four occasions
you're deducing that Sue is no longer capable of being a good
friend, because on those four days out of 365, she was
preoccupied.
Gee whiz.
Of course OP has the right to be friends or not, to whatever
degree she wants, with whomever she wants. If you take the
trouble to read up-thread, I also suggested several polite ways
for her to skip seeing Sue without resorting to silly lies or
unnecessary machinations.
But if the OP were to substitute the snarky over-reaction and
catastrophizing of strangers on the internet for her own
knowledge of a person she called her best friend?
That would be incredibly cruel. Not to mention short-sighted and
foolish.
#Post#: 25826--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: Lilac
Date: February 12, 2019, 4:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jem link ---
>
> [quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=981.msg25812#msg25812
date=1550002210]
> Characterizing Sue as some kind of obsessive weirdo because of
the tiny snippets OP has seen in the most intense years of new
parenting, and then rejecting her as a friend because of it --
that is what I meant would be cruel.
>
--- End Quote ---
I'm not sure I would use the phrase "rejecting her as a friend"
or characterize easing off on the friendship as cruel. I don't
think the OP would be easing off on the friendship because she
disagrees with how her friend is parenting - it would be because
the friend's parenting choices affect the friend's relationship
with the OP in negative ways. I don't think it is at all "cruel"
for the OP to spend her time with people who want to spend time
with her. I don't think it is at all "cruel" for the OP to ease
away from a friendship that is no longer bringing her joy.
[/quote]
I don't think it's cruel to ease off, either. I've had
friendships wither when the other parties became parents --
their focus completely changed and we no longer had much in
common.
Even infants can be left with other caregivers for a few hours,
let alone toddlers. And we all know people who ARE obsessive
about their offspring, to the exclusion of all else. I see no
reason to doubt the OP's assessment of this situation. And no
reason that the childfree should always be the one to bend and
accommodate.
#Post#: 25827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: February 12, 2019, 4:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Anon4Now link ---
>
> [quote author=lakey link=topic=981.msg25811#msg25811
date=1549994912]
> [quote]But to pathologize her parenting when you have no idea
what it's really like, or withdraw from the friendship because
of this imaginary "issue" is just cruel.
--- End Quote ---
I disagree with referring to this as an imaginary issue. For
whatever reason, the friendship has changed drastically. That's
not imaginary.
I also disagree with it being cruel to withdraw from a
friendship because it has changed.
Over the years I've had friendships go by the wayside because of
changes in circumstances, marriage, children, job changes,
whatever. Sometimes people just don't have anything in common
any more. It's not cruel, it's just reality.
As far as the rest of what you said, Anon4Now, you are right. We
don't know the reasoning behind the mom's parenting and it is
between her and her husband. OP's relationship with the mom has
changed and she needs to decide whether it is worth taking up
part of her limited time in Hometown with someone who is unable
to give her attention.
[/quote]
No, it's not cruel to step back if the friendship isn't meeting
OP's needs or is more high-maintenance than she's prepared for,
or any other reasons about the friendship itself.
But that is not at all the tone of the last couple of posts.
They were directly about shedding Sue as a friend because of
total speculation about her parenting style and the way they
predict she will parent in the future.
Characterizing Sue as some kind of obsessive weirdo because of
the tiny snippets OP has seen in the most intense years of new
parenting, and then rejecting her as a friend because of it --
that is what I meant would be cruel.
[/quote]
There is a difference in rejecting a friend and as most of us
indicated, distancing. A form of distancing is that the OP no
longer feels obligated to visit the friend during each trip.
And I would be distancing primarily because the OP said that
when she has visited with the friend, husband, and child, the
friend spends more time focused on the child and not visiting
with her. To me that is a clear indication the friend no longer
desires a more intimate style friendship.
And while you might believe there are excellent reasons to not
take a child to see a hospitalized grandparent, I'm pretty sure
I could have figured out a way. I can take the child in for a
very short visit and then take the child back out of the room if
it gets fussy. I can keep the child from touching things. Unless
my child was chronically ill, which it doesn't sound like he is
since mom takes him everywhere, I would not put more weight on
my fear of a potential stomach bug over the ability for the
grandparent to see the child one more time.
#Post#: 25837--------------------------------------------------
Re: Visiting Home City but not seeing best friend?
DIR By: Bottlecaps
Date: February 12, 2019, 8:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Bada link ---
>
> I'm not sure of the full script, but I think if you emphasize
how much you're looking forward to seeing her on your next trip,
when you're going to have more time to relax, she'll be less
hurt and she'll know you're not trying to snub the relationship.
>
--- End Quote ---
Something along these lines would be my suggestion. Make it
known that you're on limited time and won't have time to meet
up, with your visit being only a couple of days, but make sure
she knows that the next time you're in town, with more time to
shoot the breeze, that you'd love to see her.
As an aside, you're not a bad person at all for not wanting to
see her because of Billy. Being friends with the mother of a
small child comes with its own caveats, most of which you've
laid out here. There's nothing wrong with wanting to spend some
one-on-one time with your friend, with no distractions. :)
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