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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 23835--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: guest657
Date: January 11, 2019, 6:32 pm
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I think it's gracious to offer to let him go first. And if you
were a large group or likely to be very slow (like dealing with
little kids) it would be more significant to let him go first.
But in this situation, it was not a big deal and I think you
made it wierd by correcting your friend, and by doing the
"dance."
It was nice to offer, but as soon as he demurred, it would be
better to drop it.
The idea that this man was trying to force himself into OP's
group, or doing anything annoying or burdensome by holding the
door, is bizarre.
#Post#: 23836--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: Thitpualso
Date: January 11, 2019, 6:54 pm
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I usually agree with TootsNYC but I can’t on this one.
It hasn’t happened for a few years but there was a time when I’d
be going into a shop behind a teenager. He or she would open
the door only enough to slide through and let it close in my
face while giving me the stink-eye.
Hey? I’m an older woman with a bag of groceries. I am not
likely to try to kidnap you in a bookstore. How hard would it be
to hold the door a bit more open for a few seconds?
Simple civility is easy and makes the day a little better for
everyone.
#Post#: 23841--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: January 11, 2019, 9:21 pm
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Maybe it's the New Yorker in me, but I don't think it's civil to
hold the door open when you are far enough ahead of someone that
they feel they have to chance their pace so as not to
inconvenience you.
Are you immediately ahead of them? It's fine to hold the
door--but if it then becomes awkward to let you go first,
because it's crowded, etc., you should hang back.
Are they encumbered and might have difficulty with the door?
It's a nice thing to hold the door.
But if they're basically able-bodied looking, and they're not
immediately behind you, I think it's impinging to hold the door
and wait for them to get there to walk through.
The "holding the door for the woman" is for women you have been
introduced to, who are already in your party.
Holding the door for a stranger is only OK if your holding the
door doesn't inconvenience her (by making her feel she has to
hurry up to get through while you're waiting for her).
I hold the door for people, and I've had it held for me in
situations where it's felt right. But a stranger who is several
steps ahead of me, and who would have to wait several beats for
me to get there? I'm not a fan of that; I think it's impinging.
#Post#: 23844--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: Kiwipinball
Date: January 11, 2019, 9:39 pm
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--- Quote from: TootsNYC link ---
>
> Maybe it's the New Yorker in me, but I don't think it's civil
to hold the door open when you are far enough ahead of someone
that they feel they have to chance their pace so as not to
inconvenience you.
>
> Are you immediately ahead of them? It's fine to hold the
door--but if it then becomes awkward to let you go first,
because it's crowded, etc., you should hang back.
>
> Are they encumbered and might have difficulty with the door?
It's a nice thing to hold the door.
>
> But if they're basically able-bodied looking, and they're not
immediately behind you, I think it's impinging to hold the door
and wait for them to get there to walk through.
>
> The "holding the door for the woman" is for women you have
been introduced to, who are already in your party.
>
> Holding the door for a stranger is only OK if your holding the
door doesn't inconvenience her (by making her feel she has to
hurry up to get through while you're waiting for her).
>
> I hold the door for people, and I've had it held for me in
situations where it's felt right. But a stranger who is several
steps ahead of me, and who would have to wait several beats for
me to get there? I'm not a fan of that; I think it's impinging.
>
--- End Quote ---
It can be awkward when someone's a bit too far ahead. If someone
was really far ahead (e.g. take me more than a minute to get to
the door) I would find that annoying unless I was obviously
struggling (I think people did that when I was on crutches,
which was appreciated). However, there are times when people are
that awkward distance away - not too far, not too close and I
can see people deciding to err on the side of holding the door
open. I can also see in busier places (e.g. NY) there would be
so many people the habit would be more to not shut the door in
people's faces but otherwise not worry about it.
The opening door action I found the most irritating was a boy I
knew in junior high (so he would have been 14 so hopefully he
grew out of this). He was so desperate to open doors for
women/girls that he would abruptly cut off a conversation and
run ahead to make sure he was at the door first (to open it). We
were in the same party, but it was so awkward and annoying.
I will also note that in the south, men holding doors for women
and letting them go first seems to be deeply engrained. I grew
up (and again live in) MN. I went to school in TN. While people
in MN are generally polite (not shutting doors in faces, etc), I
don't think a man in TN ever got on the elevator before me (if
we were both waiting). When I got back to MN I had to remember
that that's not rude up here. So I wouldn't be surprised that a
man in the south would be more likely to be holding a door open
at those awkward distances. It's not meant to be intrusive, it's
just common place there.
#Post#: 23849--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: guest657
Date: January 11, 2019, 10:28 pm
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If you feel that the person is too far ahead, and don't want to
change your pace, there's a very simple solution for that.
... Don't change your pace.
Goodness, I never thought that I'd have to tell Toots, of all
people, that other people's feelings and expectations are not
your problem. Nobody can "impinge" on you without your
permission.
Live your boundaries, Toots. If you don't want the door held,
wave them off. But be polite and say, "No thank you."
#Post#: 23850--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: NFPwife
Date: January 11, 2019, 10:47 pm
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--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> I also thought it was "common knowledge". But I read a recent
Ms. Manner's where this was discussed. Ms. Manners agrees with
you that once inside you step aside and let the person opening
the door proceed in front of you.
>
> I've noticed that sometimes I need to encourage the man to go
ahead with a "oh, it'll take me awhile to decide, please go
ahead".
>
> I was once impressed with my daughter around age 4 when she,
my DH and I were going to a fast casual with the same set up. A
single man held open the door for her and I and my DH. My DD
automatically moved to the side and said "you first" to the
gentleman. I don't know if she had learned it at school or just
observing, but I knew we had never had the conversation with
her. Hence, why I assume it is a common knowledge thing.
>
--- End Quote ---
It's taking every bit of self restraint I have not to message
her with "See! Even 4 year olds know this!" :D I might look for
that Ms. Manners because there's a slim chance she wrote it.
After we ordered, we were seated waiting for our food (they give
you a number for your table) and discussed the ins and outs of
this.
I said something like, "When you reached for the menu, I thought
you'd stop and pretend to look at that, or the hummus poster, to
let him go ahead of us without having to tell him to, because if
we tell him to, like we did, he's going to refuse, we'll insist,
and well.... We know how that went."
We went back and forth a little and she said, "We should send
this to Ms. Manners." I said, "Yep, and make a bet on it,
because I'm sure she's going to agree with me. $100 make it
interesting?" She laughed and teased me about what I will and
won't bet on (which I expected her to do) and the conversation
moved on.
To the poster who said I'd corrected her, I hadn't intended my
arm tap and eye gesture to be that, more of a "I know you know
this, you probably forgot because we were talking about
something," kind of gesture. When she did the whole, "What? HUH?
What are you trying to say?" very loudly, then it turned into a
explanation / correction. When she responded like that, the
whole thing devolved into sketch comedy, frankly.
I intentionally put in the info about this happening in the Deep
South because the door holding is completely common. My feeling
like I should take a fast step is on me. He gave no signs of
impatience and, for that region, it's a normal door holding
space.
Thanks for all the perspective everyone!
#Post#: 23862--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: Hanna
Date: January 12, 2019, 8:15 am
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The way I see it, offering is the thing to do, but depending
upon the situation the person holding the door might decline.
My fiancé said he would thank them and decline 75% of the time.
If I were with him he would likely accept. If the people were
older than us we would both likely decline the offer. If it was
a workday, the other party obviously wasn't working and he was
in a hurry he would thank them and accept.
He and I are on the same page.
#Post#: 23867--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: Lula
Date: January 12, 2019, 9:36 am
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No, what orders first. Who orders second.
Sorry.
#Post#: 23868--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: January 12, 2019, 9:38 am
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Miss Manner's column on the subject.
HTML https://www.uexpress.com/miss-manners/2018/12/19/0/he-holds-the-door-you-wave
And it's not always men holding the door. I was at a Zoe's one
time and a 2 moms with kids and strollers were approaching so I
held the door open for them. I assumed they'd step aside and let
me in front of them to order. But no, they both proceeded to the
2 opened registers to separately order taking a ton of time
discussing options with the kids.
#Post#: 23869--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who Orders First
DIR By: Isisnin
Date: January 12, 2019, 9:42 am
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--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> Miss Manner's column on the subject.
>
>
HTML https://www.uexpress.com/miss-manners/2018/12/19/0/he-holds-the-door-you-wave
>
> And it's not always men holding the door. I was at a Zoe's one
time and a 2 moms with kids and strollers were approaching so I
held the door open for them. I assumed they'd step aside and let
me in front of them to order. But no, they both proceeded to the
2 opened registers to separately order taking a ton of time
discussing options with the kids.
>
--- End Quote ---
Did they at least thank you?
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