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       #Post#: 23883--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Aleko
       Date: January 12, 2019, 1:11 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       On a London-based discussion board someone once complained 'Why
       do people constantly try to shove their way on board a Tube
       train when they can see for themselves that it's already full?'
       And the sad but true answer is that London commuters know - they
       don't 'think': by God they know - that the people already on
       board will not move up to make space for them unless they're
       shoved.
       You can see this on any Tube platform. Say it's evening rush
       hour, and the platform is packed with people waiting to get on.
       When the train arrives it's full, but this is one of the
       stations that's a major interchange, so lots of people get off,
       maybe a dozen from every carriage. So logically that means
       there's room for a dozen people to get on, right? Except that
       when those dozen got off, everyone else in the carriage said to
       themselves, 'Ooh good, now we can have our personal space
       again!' and expanded after them to take up all the space; so now
       the carriage looks as full as it did before all those people got
       off and the people nearest the doors are staring blankly at the
       people waiting to get in, as if to say 'What are you looking at?
       Can't you see this carriage is full?' And they will not contract
       back into the space they were previously occupying unless they
       are shoved all the way; and the only way to be sure that there
       genuinely is no room for one more is to shove till even shoving
       won't work. Sad but true.
       And on suburban trains, where we too have inadequately-wide
       triple seats, people who have secured a place on either side of
       a triple will instinctively let themselves 'overflow' into the
       middle, in the hope that anybody wanting to sit down will take
       one look, assume it's physically impossible, and not try. It may
       work in many cases; but if someone is brash enough to sit down
       between them anyway, they may find that there's more room than
       there appeared.
       So unless US commuters are far more sweetly selfless and
       community-minded than London ones, which I kind of doubt, it's
       not at all unreasonable for someone to try to sit between two
       large people, in the hope that they aren't as large as they were
       making themselves look..
       #Post#: 23885--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: TootsNYC
       Date: January 12, 2019, 1:22 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I feel that it hasn't been as bad as it used to be--maybe a
       redesign of the train interior affected it--but it used to be in
       NYC that the people just 4 steps inside the door wouldn't move
       in more, and so there would be HUGE gaps in the middle of the
       car, visible from the windows, and a crunch of people by the
       door that you couldn't get through to get to that open space.
       So people push. Or, if you're me, you call out and say, "There's
       room in the middle, please move down!"
       Ditto on the busses. People go a short distance, and then they
       plant themselves, and even if you were wanting to go beyond them
       to the open space, you can't. Not without shoving.
       #Post#: 23887--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: AliciaLynette
       Date: January 12, 2019, 1:46 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The same thing happens TootsNYC, on buses in the UK, to the
       point that there are signs and the driver will yell 'Please move
       down the bus.' to get more people on.  Of course, most people
       here will move themselves without being asked, but there always
       one who ignores the fact they're blocking people from getting
       past!
       #Post#: 23894--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Songbird
       Date: January 12, 2019, 4:10 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I commute on the Long Island Railroad and ride the NYC Subway.
       It’s just like London, though Toots is right that the subway
       isn’t as bad as it used to be.
       #Post#: 24116--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Songbird
       Date: January 16, 2019, 9:18 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       last night's outrageous behavior:
       The train was two cars short, and everyone had to scramble for a
       seat.  The railroad personnel had to ask everyone to please keep
       their bags off the seats, and those standing to move down the
       aisle so that everyone could board the train.  The train was too
       crowded for the conductor to walk through to collect tickets.
       Fortunately I was among the first ot board the train, and I had
       a seat.
       Across the aisle from me there was a group of four seats, two
       facing two.  A young woman sat down and put her bag on the seat
       next to her, and her feet on the opposite seat. She was saving
       three seats for her friends who had not yet boarded the train.
       Two of her friends boarded about a minute or two after we did,
       but the third boarded just before the train left the station.
       I didn't say anything, since I was already sitting down, and no
       one else complained.
       the entitlement factor at work here ...
       #Post#: 24197--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Hanna
       Date: January 17, 2019, 9:21 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Songbird link ---
       >
       > last night's outrageous behavior:
       >
       > The train was two cars short, and everyone had to scramble for
       a seat.  The railroad personnel had to ask everyone to please
       keep their bags off the seats, and those standing to move down
       the aisle so that everyone could board the train.  The train was
       too crowded for the conductor to walk through to collect
       tickets.  Fortunately I was among the first ot board the train,
       and I had a seat.
       >
       > Across the aisle from me there was a group of four seats, two
       facing two.  A young woman sat down and put her bag on the seat
       next to her, and her feet on the opposite seat. She was saving
       three seats for her friends who had not yet boarded the train.
       Two of her friends boarded about a minute or two after we did,
       but the third boarded just before the train left the station.
       >
       > I didn't say anything, since I was already sitting down, and
       no one else complained.
       >
       > the entitlement factor at work here ...
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       They all boarded at the same station?
       #Post#: 24198--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Songbird
       Date: January 17, 2019, 9:33 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Hanna link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg24116#msg24116
       date=1547651917]
       > last night's outrageous behavior:
       >
       > The train was two cars short, and everyone had to scramble for
       a seat.  The railroad personnel had to ask everyone to please
       keep their bags off the seats, and those standing to move down
       the aisle so that everyone could board the train.  The train was
       too crowded for the conductor to walk through to collect
       tickets.  Fortunately I was among the first ot board the train,
       and I had a seat.
       >
       > Across the aisle from me there was a group of four seats, two
       facing two.  A young woman sat down and put her bag on the seat
       next to her, and her feet on the opposite seat. She was saving
       three seats for her friends who had not yet boarded the train.
       Two of her friends boarded about a minute or two after we did,
       but the third boarded just before the train left the station.
       >
       > I didn't say anything, since I was already sitting down, and
       no one else complained.
       >
       > the entitlement factor at work here ...
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       They all boarded at the same station?
       [/quote]
       Yes.  The train originated at Penn Station.  the passengers were
       all standing on the platform like a pack of wolves waiting for
       the train to arrive from the yard.  I was at the front of the
       pack and was amng the first to board the train.  I don't know
       for sure, but I think the yong woman pushed her way through the
       crowd to board the train, she mntioned that she and her friends
       became separated in the crowd.
       #Post#: 24199--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Jem
       Date: January 17, 2019, 9:43 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Songbird link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Hanna link=topic=925.msg24197#msg24197
       date=1547738487]
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg24116#msg24116
       date=1547651917]
       > last night's outrageous behavior:
       >
       > The train was two cars short, and everyone had to scramble for
       a seat.  The railroad personnel had to ask everyone to please
       keep their bags off the seats, and those standing to move down
       the aisle so that everyone could board the train.  The train was
       too crowded for the conductor to walk through to collect
       tickets.  Fortunately I was among the first ot board the train,
       and I had a seat.
       >
       > Across the aisle from me there was a group of four seats, two
       facing two.  A young woman sat down and put her bag on the seat
       next to her, and her feet on the opposite seat. She was saving
       three seats for her friends who had not yet boarded the train.
       Two of her friends boarded about a minute or two after we did,
       but the third boarded just before the train left the station.
       >
       > I didn't say anything, since I was already sitting down, and
       no one else complained.
       >
       > the entitlement factor at work here ...
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       They all boarded at the same station?
       [/quote]
       Yes.  The train originated at Penn Station.  the passengers were
       all standing on the platform like a pack of wolves waiting for
       the train to arrive from the yard.  I was at the front of the
       pack and was amng the first to board the train.  I don't know
       for sure, but I think the yong woman pushed her way through the
       crowd to board the train, she mntioned that she and her friends
       became separated in the crowd.
       [/quote]
       I'm having a difficult time envisioning this. So people were
       already standing inside the train, and there were multiple empty
       seats (apparently at least five - one for the OP, one for the
       woman saving seats, and three for the seats being saved), when
       the train pulled into the station? And no one said anything to
       the person saving the seats? I would assume that the people who
       chose to stand when there were so many open seats made that
       choice consciously.
       #Post#: 24205--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: caroled
       Date: January 17, 2019, 10:19 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Songbird link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Hanna link=topic=925.msg24197#msg24197
       date=1547738487]
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg24116#msg24116
       date=1547651917]
       > last night's outrageous behavior:
       >
       > The train was two cars short, and everyone had to scramble for
       a seat.  The railroad personnel had to ask everyone to please
       keep their bags off the seats, and those standing to move down
       the aisle so that everyone could board the train.  The train was
       too crowded for the conductor to walk through to collect
       tickets.  Fortunately I was among the first ot board the train,
       and I had a seat.
       >
       > Across the aisle from me there was a group of four seats, two
       facing two.  A young woman sat down and put her bag on the seat
       next to her, and her feet on the opposite seat. She was saving
       three seats for her friends who had not yet boarded the train.
       Two of her friends boarded about a minute or two after we did,
       but the third boarded just before the train left the station.
       >
       > I didn't say anything, since I was already sitting down, and
       no one else complained.
       >
       > the entitlement factor at work here ...
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       They all boarded at the same station?
       [/quote]
       Yes.  The train originated at Penn Station.  the passengers were
       all standing on the platform like a pack of wolves waiting for
       the train to arrive from the yard.  I was at the front of the
       pack and was amng the first to board the train.  I don't know
       for sure, but I think the yong woman pushed her way through the
       crowd to board the train, she mntioned that she and her friends
       became separated in the crowd.
       [/quote]
       She was in one , her bag in one and her feet in a 3rd opposite
       her, that left a 4th unoccupied seat.... I don't believe I'd
       have had a problem sitting in that seat if I had a need to sit
       rather than stand during the commute. She and her friends could
       all stare daggers at me if they liked. But I , or anyone else
       there that chose to take the seat had just as much right to it ,
       if not more so by fact that we were actually on board first,
       ahead of her late friends.
       ( As a BG: I put up with that bullshit as a child when I didn't
       know, nor did I have the voice to speak up when I rode the
       school bus as a child. I was picked up as the 4th stop or so on
       a route that stopped 5 more times after mine. A lot of the high
       school students that were picked up earlier would claim their
       seats, and spread out their belongings to save seats for friends
       who wouldn't board for another 3 or 4 stops,  another 30 minutes
       or so later.  I was blessed/ fortunate enough to attend this
       private school, but extra fees over and above the tuition costs
       were applied if students rode the buses. I had just as much
       right to a seat that was bought and paid for as everybody else.)
       #Post#: 24206--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Songbird
       Date: January 17, 2019, 11:07 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Jem link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg24198#msg24198
       date=1547739228]
       > [quote author=Hanna link=topic=925.msg24197#msg24197
       date=1547738487]
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg24116#msg24116
       date=1547651917]
       > last night's outrageous behavior:
       >
       > The train was two cars short, and everyone had to scramble for
       a seat.  The railroad personnel had to ask everyone to please
       keep their bags off the seats, and those standing to move down
       the aisle so that everyone could board the train.  The train was
       too crowded for the conductor to walk through to collect
       tickets.  Fortunately I was among the first ot board the train,
       and I had a seat.
       >
       > Across the aisle from me there was a group of four seats, two
       facing two.  A young woman sat down and put her bag on the seat
       next to her, and her feet on the opposite seat. She was saving
       three seats for her friends who had not yet boarded the train.
       Two of her friends boarded about a minute or two after we did,
       but the third boarded just before the train left the station.
       >
       > I didn't say anything, since I was already sitting down, and
       no one else complained.
       >
       > the entitlement factor at work here ...
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       They all boarded at the same station?
       [/quote]
       Yes.  The train originated at Penn Station.  the passengers were
       all standing on the platform like a pack of wolves waiting for
       the train to arrive from the yard.  I was at the front of the
       pack and was amng the first to board the train.  I don't know
       for sure, but I think the yong woman pushed her way through the
       crowd to board the train, she mntioned that she and her friends
       became separated in the crowd.
       [/quote]
       I'm having a difficult time envisioning this. So people were
       already standing inside the train, and there were multiple empty
       seats (apparently at least five - one for the OP, one for the
       woman saving seats, and three for the seats being saved), when
       the train pulled into the station? And no one said anything to
       the person saving the seats? I would assume that the people who
       chose to stand when there were so many open seats made that
       choice consciously.
       [/quote]
       Maybe I can help.
       the train originated in penn Station.  It was in the yard and
       pulled into the station empty.  There was a huge crowd standing
       on the platform waiting to board.  When the train doors opened,
       there was a mad rush to claim seats.  I was one of the lucky
       ones.
       that train is usually 12 cars, but on the night in question it
       was only 10 cars.  but 12 cars' worth of passengers were on the
       platform.
       If you look at the picture I have attached, you'll see what I
       mean by a four-seater.  (And no, that's not a photo I took,
       though I've seen that sort of behavior often.)
       the young woman grabbed the four-seater, put her feet on two of
       the seats and her bag on the seat next to her.
       By the time he r friends boarded, the car was "standing room
       only".
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