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       #Post#: 23318--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: LurkingGurl
       Date: January 4, 2019, 3:09 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Jem link ---
       >
       > [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=925.msg23312#msg23312
       date=1546635281]
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg23310#msg23310
       date=1546635137]
       >
       >
       > Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
       middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
       and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
       In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I think if someone asked, you could have said, "I'm sorry, there
       really isn't enough space."
       [/quote]
       Agreed. I think that the person could respond with, "Oh, it's
       fine," and sit down though.
       [/quote]
       That would be rude.  Not only should you not try to squeeze
       yourself into a space you won't fit, you certainly shouldn't try
       to do it after being told no.
       #Post#: 23321--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Jem
       Date: January 4, 2019, 3:20 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Mary Sunshine Rain link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Jem link=topic=925.msg23313#msg23313
       date=1546635474]
       > [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=925.msg23312#msg23312
       date=1546635281]
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg23310#msg23310
       date=1546635137]
       >
       >
       > Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
       middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
       and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
       In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I think if someone asked, you could have said, "I'm sorry, there
       really isn't enough space."
       [/quote]
       Agreed. I think that the person could respond with, "Oh, it's
       fine," and sit down though.
       [/quote]
       That would be rude.  Not only should you not try to squeeze
       yourself into a space you won't fit, you certainly shouldn't try
       to do it after being told no.
       [/quote]
       I think that is debatable. If a person believes there is space
       for them, and they squeeze into the space, then they do.
       #Post#: 23322--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: LurkingGurl
       Date: January 4, 2019, 3:35 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Jem link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
       link=topic=925.msg23318#msg23318 date=1546636150]
       > [quote author=Jem link=topic=925.msg23313#msg23313
       date=1546635474]
       > [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=925.msg23312#msg23312
       date=1546635281]
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg23310#msg23310
       date=1546635137]
       >
       >
       > Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
       middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
       and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
       In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I think if someone asked, you could have said, "I'm sorry, there
       really isn't enough space."
       [/quote]
       Agreed. I think that the person could respond with, "Oh, it's
       fine," and sit down though.
       [/quote]
       That would be rude.  Not only should you not try to squeeze
       yourself into a space you won't fit, you certainly shouldn't try
       to do it after being told no.
       [/quote]
       I think that is debatable. If a person believes there is space
       for them, and they squeeze into the space, then they do.
       [/quote]
       If they're just going to do what they want regardless, why are
       they even asking?
       
       That's why I recommended that the OP just sit across the two
       seats.  Another plus sized person can then also sit there with
       the two of them taking up 3 seats.  What's the next person going
       to do, shove them each to the side?  Sit on them?
       It's not ideal.  But, then, it's what some have to do to get the
       same accommodation that people who are smaller get on a regular
       basis.
       
       And the only solution really, is for whoever runs the trains, to
       provide more cars so there's more seating.
       #Post#: 23330--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: GardenGal
       Date: January 4, 2019, 6:19 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I would stand, rather than be squished, but if I couldn't stand
       for health reasons I'd just endure.
       #Post#: 23334--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Isisnin
       Date: January 4, 2019, 7:10 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Songbird link ---
       >
       > OP here...
       >
       > I've got arthritic knees and a herniated disk, standing for 45
       minutes would be very painful, so I'll sit squished.
       >
       > coincidentally, this morning I had the aisle seat on a three
       seater, and the guy by the window was plus sized to the point
       that he actually took up a large part of the middle seat.   The
       train wasn't that crowded, so no one asked to sit in the middle
       seat. There wouldn't have been room for anyone larger than a
       child.
       >
       > Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
       middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
       and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
       In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       The best solution to that situation would be to say "I'll just
       move over." Then slide over to the window guy, leaving the
       narrow edge by the aisle to the new person.
       #Post#: 23336--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: wolfie
       Date: January 4, 2019, 7:34 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Mary Sunshine Rain link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Jem link=topic=925.msg23321#msg23321
       date=1546636802]
       > [quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
       link=topic=925.msg23318#msg23318 date=1546636150]
       > [quote author=Jem link=topic=925.msg23313#msg23313
       date=1546635474]
       > [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=925.msg23312#msg23312
       date=1546635281]
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg23310#msg23310
       date=1546635137]
       >
       >
       > Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
       middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
       and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
       In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I think if someone asked, you could have said, "I'm sorry, there
       really isn't enough space."
       [/quote]
       Agreed. I think that the person could respond with, "Oh, it's
       fine," and sit down though.
       [/quote]
       That would be rude.  Not only should you not try to squeeze
       yourself into a space you won't fit, you certainly shouldn't try
       to do it after being told no.
       [/quote]
       I think that is debatable. If a person believes there is space
       for them, and they squeeze into the space, then they do.
       [/quote]
       If they're just going to do what they want regardless, why are
       they even asking?
       
       That's why I recommended that the OP just sit across the two
       seats.  Another plus sized person can then also sit there with
       the two of them taking up 3 seats.  What's the next person going
       to do, shove them each to the side?  Sit on them?
       It's not ideal.  But, then, it's what some have to do to get the
       same accommodation that people who are smaller get on a regular
       basis.
       
       And the only solution really, is for whoever runs the trains, to
       provide more cars so there's more seating.
       [/quote]
       Usually those issues only happen during "rush hour" or prime X
       days (like say prime shopping days in Christmas, or days of
       sports events). it's not practical to add cars to a train in the
       middle of the day and then take them away again when they aren't
       needed.
       #Post#: 23340--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: guest657
       Date: January 4, 2019, 8:36 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Aleko link ---
       >
       > [quote]I don't think it's rude or "despicable" to put your
       coat on an empty seat. That's pretty extreme hyperbole. If
       someone asked to sit down and you refused, yes that is rude.
       --- End Quote ---
       I said, "Putting your belongings on a second seat with the
       intention of preventing shy or timid people from having the same
       comfort you are having, is despicable and rude." That's clear,
       surely? By all means spread out, if the train is half empty. But
       don't do it on a train that you know is going to fill up, and
       then when it does, determinedly ignore the people looking for a
       seat in the hope that they won't be assertive enough to stand
       over you and say "EXCUSE ME! Is anyone sitting there? No? Can
       you move your stuff then?"
       --- Quote ---
       > And if you think discouraging squeezers is about taking
       advantage of the "shy and timid", and nobody chooses to squash
       up on larger women for reasons other than being unable to stand
       comfortably --- well, I'm very glad for you, and hope you never
       have some of the experiences I have had on public
       transportation.
       --- End Quote ---
       I'm a fair size, and I had a 45-minute train journey to work for
       25 years. I hardly ever encountered creeps of the kind you
       describe, and on the rare occasions when I did, flipping out the
       marlinspike on my Swiss Army knife and tucking it between him
       and me worked like a charm. On the other hand, people hogging
       two seats and feigning deafness when asked to clear one of them
       were a daily hazard.
       --- Quote ---
       > If my coat or bag will discourage a creepy opportunist, I'm
       all for not being an easy mark.
       --- End Quote ---
       But it isn't very likely to. All he has to do is request you to
       move it, and you can hardly refuse if asked point-blank. So you
       will certainly be inconveniencing innocent fellow passengers
       daily, on just the off-chance of very occasionally putting off a
       creep.
       [/quote]
       Wow.
       You regularly brandish a knife on public transit, but consider
       *a coat* to be some kind of sinister intimidation? That's...
       that's a perspective I find hard to fathom.
       I'm not talking about denying anyone space they need. I'm
       talking about nonverbal cues and making spaces more or less
       desirable.
       I don't particularly want anyone sitting next to me. I'm not
       going to block them. But I'm not going to advertise "Hey! Here's
       an open seat! Take this one first!" either.
       If someone is too "shy and timid" to say, "May I?" Then I have
       no idea how they could even function on public transport
       unassisted in the first place.
       And yeah, actually, forcing people to look you in the eye and
       speak to you like a human being actually does cut down on the
       number of lowlifes who try to slide into your personal space for
       icky or pickpocket purposes. At least it did for me.
       Id heard the pen is more powerful than the sword, but I didn't
       realize the coat is more powerful than a knife, LOL.
       #Post#: 23357--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Hanna
       Date: January 5, 2019, 5:40 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Mary Sunshine Rain link ---
       >
       > Just take up two seats so it never happens again.  If another
       plus sized person takes the aisle, you can move over a bit so
       that you both have enough room.
       >
       > This might be unfair to other people but it is what it is.
       >
       > I guess actually it's only unfair to one hypothetical person
       who would have to stand.  But, if you let them sit, then you
       would have to stand.  And you're not hypothetical.
       >
       > I think it's more reasonable to expect one more person to
       stand than to suffer the loss of feeling in one's limbs because
       the seats do not accommodate you properly.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       If the seats are small enough that a person naturally takes up
       more than one, I agree with just going ahead and taking up two
       seats. Because effectively, that seat is already gone anyway,
       and I don’t think anyone should have to be squished in the
       manner that OP described.
       Clearly that 3rd person had some kind of problem judging the
       space and their own size when they sat down. No one is trying to
       deny others a comfortable seat, but we aren’t talking about a
       comfortable seat here, we are talking about one person making
       two others, and likely themselves, very uncomfortable.
       Someone mentioned morality upthread. This is not a moral issue
       unless you want to talk about the morality of believing only the
       littlest among us ever should be allowed to sit down. Most
       public transport seats accommodate only an armless person no
       taller than 5’3” and no heavier than 120lbs comfortably, and
       even only for about 5 minutes.   Morally people are not entitled
       to anything more than a ride. Thus first come, first served for
       the seats (barring physical disabilities) seems like the only
       fair way to handle it.
       Also, I think the molded seats are a suggestion, rather than a
       fact of law. Without them many people would just sprawl
       everywhere without consideration for others, even if they didn’t
       require the space. If a person’s body physically takes up more
       space than that, the laws of physics come into play.
       #Post#: 23358--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: Hanna
       Date: January 5, 2019, 5:46 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Songbird link ---
       >
       > OP here...
       >
       > I've got arthritic knees and a herniated disk, standing for 45
       minutes would be very painful, so I'll sit squished.
       >
       > coincidentally, this morning I had the aisle seat on a three
       seater, and the guy by the window was plus sized to the point
       that he actually took up a large part of the middle seat.   The
       train wasn't that crowded, so no one asked to sit in the middle
       seat. There wouldn't have been room for anyone larger than a
       child.
       >
       > Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
       middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
       and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
       In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       In this case I would say, “That just won’t work.”
       I don’t think anyone has the right to sit on you.
       #Post#: 23842--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
   DIR By: TootsNYC
       Date: January 11, 2019, 9:24 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Hanna link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg23310#msg23310
       date=1546635137]
       > OP here...
       >
       > I've got arthritic knees and a herniated disk, standing for 45
       minutes would be very painful, so I'll sit squished.
       >
       > coincidentally, this morning I had the aisle seat on a three
       seater, and the guy by the window was plus sized to the point
       that he actually took up a large part of the middle seat.   The
       train wasn't that crowded, so no one asked to sit in the middle
       seat. There wouldn't have been room for anyone larger than a
       child.
       >
       > Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
       middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
       and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
       In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       In this case I would say, “That just won’t work.”
       I don’t think anyone has the right to sit on you.
       [/quote]
       Agree.
       And I also agree with the idea of sliding over toward the other
       guy and leaving the narrow space next to the aisle
       *****************************************************
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