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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 23280--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: Aleko
Date: January 4, 2019, 12:13 pm
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--- Quote ---
> I don't think it's rude or "despicable" to put your coat on an
empty seat. That's pretty extreme hyperbole. If someone asked to
sit down and you refused, yes that is rude.
--- End Quote ---
I said, "Putting your belongings on a second seat with the
intention of preventing shy or timid people from having the same
comfort you are having, is despicable and rude." That's clear,
surely? By all means spread out, if the train is half empty. But
don't do it on a train that you know is going to fill up, and
then when it does, determinedly ignore the people looking for a
seat in the hope that they won't be assertive enough to stand
over you and say "EXCUSE ME! Is anyone sitting there? No? Can
you move your stuff then?"
--- Quote ---
> And if you think discouraging squeezers is about taking
advantage of the "shy and timid", and nobody chooses to squash
up on larger women for reasons other than being unable to stand
comfortably --- well, I'm very glad for you, and hope you never
have some of the experiences I have had on public
transportation.
--- End Quote ---
I'm a fair size, and I had a 45-minute train journey to work for
25 years. I hardly ever encountered creeps of the kind you
describe, and on the rare occasions when I did, flipping out the
marlinspike on my Swiss Army knife and tucking it between him
and me worked like a charm. On the other hand, people hogging
two seats and feigning deafness when asked to clear one of them
were a daily hazard.
--- Quote ---
> If my coat or bag will discourage a creepy opportunist, I'm
all for not being an easy mark.
--- End Quote ---
But it isn't very likely to. All he has to do is request you to
move it, and you can hardly refuse if asked point-blank. So you
will certainly be inconveniencing innocent fellow passengers
daily, on just the off-chance of very occasionally putting off a
creep.
#Post#: 23283--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: January 4, 2019, 12:24 pm
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--- Quote from: Jem link ---
>
> I’m not sure what you would say. Your size is as much a factor
as theirs, it sounds like, and no one did anything “wrong.” If
you felt too squished I think your best option would be to stand
up.
>
> I also dislike when someone else takes up “my space” on public
transportation. I am not overweight and of average height. I
take up less than the space allotted. But unless the person
encroaching on my space is doing so intentionally I just grin
and bear it or stand myself. What else could I do? Demand they
become smaller?
>
--- End Quote ---
This is where I sit--or, rather, where I stand.
If it's uncomfortable, I get up.
If I'm losing the circulation in my limbs, I have all the power
I need to fix that. I can stand up.
I *don't* care whether my doing so makes the plus-size person
next to me self-conscious--not my problem. I don't make any sort
of noise or expression, or anything; I have sometimes smiled
slightly at someone in order to create a pleasant, "I'm not
annoyed" mood.
But I don't worry if they end up feeling bad for making me
move because they're physically larger than me. As long as I
don't make it worse, their feelings are not my responsibility.
(Besides which, they have to know they're squished up against
me, so they surely feel self-conscious anyway. My getting up
just makes it all end sooner--the squishedness, the
self-consciousness, etc.)
People who are heavier than me (and I'm getting a little wide
myself) have a tough enough life--they shouldn't have to be
squished on the train, and I have the power to fix it for BOTH
of us.
As for putting your stuff on an empty seat--that's OK as long as
there are many empty seats. When the train car or bus gets to
half-full, you need to get your stuff off the seat. Nobody
should ever have to ask you to move your crap off of a seat.
Ever.
#Post#: 23285--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: LurkingGurl
Date: January 4, 2019, 12:36 pm
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--- Quote from: Aleko link ---
>
> [quote]Just take up two seats so it never happens again.
--- End Quote ---
But only if she buys a second ticket.
One ticket only entitles a person (both morally and legally) to
one seat. Which may make life uncomfortable for the plus-sized,
but that also is what it is. Saying "I'm going to take a second
seat on a crowded train and make someone else stand; I know it's
unfair but that's what it takes to make ME comfortable" is pure
snowflakery.
[/quote]
Buying a ticket doesn't guarantee anyone a seat at all. It just
gets you on the train.
She could buy two tickets and end up standing all the way to her
destination.
And the "comfort" we are talking about is having your blood
flowing to all the various parts of your body.
Sometimes people simply have to use what it is that they need.
She wouldn't be taking more than she needs.
It's an ongoing puzzle for seat makers to come up with options
that serve a more diversely sized populace. I can't help but
notice that in the picture, these seats form a bench of sorts
and that's how I would approach it. That it's actually intended
to accommodate larger people who physically can sit across the
middle of two of the seats because they are not contoured to a
single tush.
2 larger people, 3 medium sized people and possibly 4
kids--different combinations of different sizes of people.
Or do you really think she should be denied the ability to ever
comfortably and safely sit on a train?
#Post#: 23293--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: Aleko
Date: January 4, 2019, 1:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Buying a ticket doesn't guarantee anyone a seat at all. It
just gets you on the train.
>
> She could buy two tickets and end up standing all the way to
her destination.
--- End Quote ---
Sure. But if she did find two seats and occupy them, she would
at least not be effectively stealing one of them from another
passenger.
--- Quote ---
> Or do you really think she should be denied the ability to
ever comfortably and safely sit on a train?
--- End Quote ---
Life, as you yourself put is, is what it is. In the London
Underground system, standing on a crowded train can be not only
uncomfortable and embarrassing but downright dangerous for short
people, as we can't reach the overhead bars and find ourselves
ricocheting off our fellow travellers as the train lurches. We
just put up with it; we don't demand special treatment.
#Post#: 23297--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: Jem
Date: January 4, 2019, 1:49 pm
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--- Quote from: Mary Sunshine Rain link ---
>
> Or do you really think she should be denied the ability to
ever comfortably and safely sit on a train?
>
--- End Quote ---
This wasn't directed to me, but no, I don't think anyone should
be denied the ability to comfortably and safely sit on a train.
However, the reality is that some people take up more space than
others. Some of the comments seemed to state that a larger
person should feel entitled to prevent others from sitting by
taking up two seats or placing their belongings in such a way to
discourage others from sitting. I don't think a larger person
should actively deny others the ability to comfortably and
safely sit on a train either.
#Post#: 23305--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: LurkingGurl
Date: January 4, 2019, 2:22 pm
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I found an article from a dozen years ago that pretty much
encapsulates my opinion. I apologize in advance for some of the
verbiage. I did change out the 3 letter F-word, but not the 4
letter one.
She makes some good points!
"Seating on public transportation is first-come, first-served.
Period. Everyone pays the same ticket price, which guarantees
nothing but some physical space on some train or bus that will
come along that day. It doesn’t guarantee you a seat, or a spot
on the next train, and it sure doesn’t guarantee you a
comfortable ride.
People come in different shapes and sizes, and some of those
people are too big to fit into one of the tiny molded butt
rectangles that ostensibly constitutes a single seat. Some
people, you’ll note, are also too tall to keep their legs out of
the way of standing passengers (or, if standing, to keep their
armpits out of the faces of shorter standing passengers, ahem).
Some people have groceries or packages or bookbags that take up
extra space, despite all the signs exhorting people to please
make such items magically disappear for the duration of the
ride. Some women have big pregnant bellies. Some people have
wheelchairs that take up more than a “single” seat, while the
rest of us stand around using our legs like suckers. Some people
fit perfectly into the butt molds in summer, but when puffer
coat season comes around, take up twice as much space as usual.
All this diversity might cause problems if public transit riders
were paying for a comfortable seat. But we’re not. We’re paying
for the cheapest possible ride from point A to point B, which
will sometimes involve having multiple seats to spread out on
and plenty of breathing space, but at other times will involve
being packed cheek by jowl with a squirming, stinking,
ill-mannered mass of humanity — and quite possibly some barf or
poop in a corner somewhere.
This is the situation. And for my money, about 95 percent of
subway etiquette questions arise from people failing to accept
that this is the situation. Y’all, seriously, how much did that
transit ticket set you back? Be real.
Now, on to specific advice. As I said above, we’re dealing with
a first-come, first-served operation. Which means, if a plus
sized person gets on the train or bus when there is enough
seating available to accommodate his or her ass? The plus sized
person has a right to sit. Even if this means taking up two
“single” seats. The butt molds are there to discourage people
from selfishly spreading out and denying other people actual
available space — not to serve as some sort of “You must be this
thin to deserve to sit” sign. That means if you get on a train
and see a plus sized person taking up two seats, those seats are
gone, period, just as they would be if two thin people had
gotten there before you, and you have no right to bitch. This is
not a matter of people taking up “more space than they deserve”
and certainly not “more space than they paid for.” This is a
matter of human beings taking up exactly as much space as they
need, because that much seating happened to be available when
they got on the train. Lucky them, poor you.
However.
If there is only one butt mold available between two other
people, and you know you’re too large to fit in it? Don’t
fucking sit there. You’re not going to be comfortable, and
you’re going to make two other people uncomfortable. Common
sense and common courtesy demand that you stand, just like all
the other poor slobs who got on when the vehicle was already
full.
Note that I’m not talking about plus sized people with invisible
disabilities, who might really need to sit. (If that’s the case,
then you’re going to have to explain that to people and ask for
a seat. And they might very well be hateful about it, which
fucking sucks, but this is public transportation we’re talking
about, not tea with the queen.) I’m talking about people — and
I’ve been one of them, dozens of times — who really want to sit,
and thus find the siren call of that one empty seat well nigh
irresistible, even knowing that for their purposes, it might as
well be a full seat. In that case? Resist it. Lucky them, poor
you.
It’s that simple, people. If a plus sized person got there
before you, a thin person? Your bad luck. And if two thin people
got there before you, a plus sized person? Your bad luck.
Welcome to mass transit."
excerpt from
HTML https://kateharding.net/2007/12/05/miss-conduct-rocks/
#Post#: 23310--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: Songbird
Date: January 4, 2019, 2:52 pm
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OP here...
I've got arthritic knees and a herniated disk, standing for 45
minutes would be very painful, so I'll sit squished.
coincidentally, this morning I had the aisle seat on a three
seater, and the guy by the window was plus sized to the point
that he actually took up a large part of the middle seat. The
train wasn't that crowded, so no one asked to sit in the middle
seat. There wouldn't have been room for anyone larger than a
child.
Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
#Post#: 23311--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: January 4, 2019, 2:54 pm
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I agree!
And I think the third woman was really rude to sit there.
But that wasn't what the question was; the question was, Should
the OP have said anything?
And my answer holds. I would just get up.
I don't sit when there are two wide people with a seat between
them. It happened just last night--I stood. And I stood in front
of some other seat, so that if one of those people got up, I
could sit down.
#Post#: 23312--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: January 4, 2019, 2:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Songbird link ---
>
>
>
> Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
>
--- End Quote ---
I think if someone asked, you could have said, "I'm sorry, there
really isn't enough space."
#Post#: 23313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Would you say something, or just endure?
DIR By: Jem
Date: January 4, 2019, 2:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: TootsNYC link ---
>
> [quote author=Songbird link=topic=925.msg23310#msg23310
date=1546635137]
>
>
> Hypothetically, though ... if someone had asked ot sit in the
middle seat, I would have had to stand up to let them sit down,
and then there wouldn't have been enough room for me to sit.
In that hypothetical situation, is it OK to say "no"?
>
--- End Quote ---
I think if someone asked, you could have said, "I'm sorry, there
really isn't enough space."
[/quote]
Agreed. I think that the person could respond with, "Oh, it's
fine," and sit down though.
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