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#Post#: 22907--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LurkingGurl Date: January 1, 2019, 10:46 pm
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[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=915.msg22905#msg22905
date=1546400824]
[quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
link=topic=915.msg22898#msg22898 date=1546392970]
[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=915.msg22894#msg22894
date=1546391639]
I'm in the majority here - the daughter should be able to spend
Christmas how she wants, and as a previous poster said, as long
as she is funding it herself.
How long is someone living at home expected to conform to the
parents' traditions? Regardless of whether she's completely
financially independent or not, 18 is plenty old enough to
decide how to spend a holiday. I would be singing a different
song if the daughter was expecting her parents to pay for the
trip, and get her to and from the location, but it doesn't sound
like this is the case.
As someone who moved out at 19, and was paying their own way at
15, I would heavily resent being told where I had to be on
Christmas or any other holiday.
[/quote]
Not an important family holiday. Her birthday? Sure. But not
this holiday.
And she's not "paying for it herself." She can afford it
because her father is underwriting her living arrangements and
probably a good bit of her school expenses.
She has an obligation to honor that until she doesn't benefit
from it anymore.
There is no "regardless of whether she is financially
independent..." There sure is! Until you are using money that
you worked for, your decisions continue to have an impact on
other people. The money she is using for the trip that will
take her away from her family on an important family holiday is
money she could be using to pay for any of the expenses that her
father and mother are shelling out for her.
Parents give their adult children a lot of leeway in terms of
letting them enjoy a quality of life they could never afford
while on their way to attaining it themselves. The least that
adult child can do under such circumstances is be there for an
important family holiday.
[/quote]
This is exactly what I meant about toxic family dynamics.
You appear to think that kids "owe" their parents for money
spent on them, and are supposed to pay it back by outward shows
of obedience, or loyalty, or filial piety, or whatever.
You repay money with money - adult children should contribute to
the household finances as best they can through rent, chores,
buying groceries, and/or helping support their parents when they
can no longer support themselves. Or by paying their parents'
support forward to the grandchildren, or by being good stewards
of the parents' finances if they have to act as a fiduciary, and
so forth.
You repay affection with affection and thoughtfulness. Now, if
you argued that it was thoughtless of Jessica to be away from
home on Christmas, particularly when they'd just lost a
parent/grandparent, I could see that. If you said John should
talk to Jessica about how that made him feel, and that he should
ask her to rethink her plans because of how much he and her mom
would miss her - sure. That's valid. It's not how I would feel,
but I can understand it.
But the idea that she's not entitled to spend the day away
because there's financial support involved? You are equating
money with affection. That's not love. It's extortion.
[/quote]
I can see how you might think that, but I am not equating money
with love. In the OP on and this thread, it was put forward
that since she can pay for this vacation and pays some of her
way, that its ok--insinuating that if she were paying for
nothing, she wouldn't have the right to say boo. That's why I
concentrated on that.
Plus, money is not just money, it's one's time and effort; the
sweat of their brow. Her dad and maybe her mom as well, spend
many hours at work to earn the money that they use to support
the household. That must be respected.
The fact that she is still supported by them and is at the same
time asserting her supposed "adulthood" is disrespectful. She's
not really an adult yet.
She knows this is an expectation and the update only makes it
more clear. She is making a selfish choice to go off and do
something fun and frivolous with her friends rather than being
there for her family--the family that is there for her!
It might be boring. It might be difficult emotionally, but it's
an obligation, no different than the chores she has to do.
#Post#: 22909--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: Amara Date: January 1, 2019, 11:26 pm
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I don't think I have ever before heard anyone equate spending
Christmas with family as an obligation equal to chores.
#Post#: 22910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: ClothoMoirai Date: January 1, 2019, 11:41 pm
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[quote author=Tea Drinker link=topic=915.msg22906#msg22906
date=1546400943]
I've been an eighteen-year-old girl with a younger brother, and
neither of us was thrilled by the opportunity to spend time at
home with the other: even a few years age difference is a big
gap at that age, and not everyone is lucky enough to have a lot
in common with their siblings.
[/quote]
That was me, and I had almost nothing in common with my brother.
The battle described happened twice in my life. The first
iteration was during the first time that I was engaged. I was in
college then and living at home as was my then-fiancee. Our
respectively families invoked "my house, my rules" and we
yielded. I'm sure they look fondly on those couple holidays but
I don't and I suspect my former fiancee doesn't. This was about
the time that I lost interest in celebrating the holidays at all
and began to resent it.
A little over two years after the end of that engagement I faced
it again. This time neither I nor my girlfriend was living with
our parents; instead we were living together for two months at
the point but our respective families didn't see that as a
reason for anything different and invoked "but it's tradition!"
We ended up giving in but there was severe damage to the
relationships with our respective families. The result was that
for a decade they only saw us on the holidays and we were only
doing so out of a sense of obligation and to placate (taking the
wind out of the sails of their complaints.) That came with a
steep rice: the cost of a meaningful relationship with us for
more than a decade. We'd see them at Thanksgiving, Christmas,
and Easter and then be incommunicado for the rest of the year. I
could only hope that winning to preserve their sense of
tradition was worth that price.
The lesson I learned from this is that it is an area to tread
carefully because it can be easy to gain a Pyrrhic victory.
#Post#: 22911--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LurkingGurl Date: January 1, 2019, 11:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Amara link=topic=915.msg22909#msg22909
date=1546406812]
I don't think I have ever before heard anyone equate spending
Christmas with family as an obligation equal to chores.
[/quote]
Is she obligated to do chores? Why? What if she would rather
hang out with her friends than do the chores?
She's an adult. Isn't she entitled to spend her time however
she pleases?
#Post#: 22912--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LadyRexall Date: January 1, 2019, 11:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
link=topic=915.msg22911#msg22911 date=1546407829]
[quote author=Amara link=topic=915.msg22909#msg22909
date=1546406812]
I don't think I have ever before heard anyone equate spending
Christmas with family as an obligation equal to chores.
[/quote]
Is she obligated to do chores? Why? What if she would rather
hang out with her friends than do the chores?
She's an adult. Isn't she entitled to spend her time however
she pleases?
[/quote]
To me, family time or holidays shouldn’t be obligation. It
should be because one “wants” to celebrate. I get that she’s
always had to do what her family wants, but she’s becoming a
little bit independent now. Trying to nip that in the bud will
damage her relationship with her family.
#Post#: 22913--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LurkingGurl Date: January 2, 2019, 12:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=LadyRexall link=topic=915.msg22912#msg22912
date=1546408166]
[quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
link=topic=915.msg22911#msg22911 date=1546407829]
[quote author=Amara link=topic=915.msg22909#msg22909
date=1546406812]
I don't think I have ever before heard anyone equate spending
Christmas with family as an obligation equal to chores.
[/quote]
Is she obligated to do chores? Why? What if she would rather
hang out with her friends than do the chores?
She's an adult. Isn't she entitled to spend her time however
she pleases?
[/quote]
To me, family time or holidays shouldn’t be obligation. It
should be because one “wants” to celebrate. I get that she’s
always had to do what her family wants, but she’s becoming a
little bit independent now. Trying to nip that in the bud will
damage her relationship with her family.
[/quote]
So, she "wants" to do chores? What if she doesn't?
Why is spending time with her family optional but chores aren't?
What if her sibling was getting married? Is she obligated to
attend that? How about a family funeral?
If family Christmas is boring, why should they reschedule it?
Won't she be just as bored if they do it on another day?
Wouldn't she be happier partying with her friends and her
boyfriend?
She's an adult, why can't she just do whatever she wants without
regard for what her parents want?
#Post#: 22914--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: ClothoMoirai Date: January 2, 2019, 1:37 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=LadyRexall link=topic=915.msg22912#msg22912
date=1546408166]
To me, family time or holidays shouldn’t be obligation. It
should be because one “wants” to celebrate.
[/quote]
This was a point my ex-wife and I made to our respective
families: they got what they asked for/demanded. Too late they
discovered it wasn't what they wanted.
#Post#: 22915--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: Asharah Date: January 2, 2019, 1:44 am
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Read something in a magazine once about how most parents build
their family holiday traditions around their children when
they're little and keep doing the same thing every year for
sentimentality. So when the kids reach their teens or early
adulthood, the things they loved when they were five don't
appeal to them anymore. Sounds like that's the situation here.
[emoji319]
#Post#: 22921--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: Wanaca Date: January 2, 2019, 8:03 am
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In my FOO, my parents considered me an adult when I took on the
full responsibilities of being an adult. It didn't matter how
many years I was alive. What mattered was what adult
responsibilities I assumed. They drilled into my head the
belief that responsibility and freedom go hand-in-hand. You
can't have one without the other. I tend to see things the same
way that they did.
I don't think it is a good comparison to compare a
self-supporting adult with a person who is still expecting
parents to support her/him. Yes, there are parents who try to
manipulate their adult (ie independent) children. That isn't
the case here.
The family Christmas sounds similar to what I celebrated---and
still do. It doesn't sound dull to me. Yet in my family,
Christmas and Thanksgiving were the only holidays we really
celebrated all year, so they were important. Two days out of
365. Until I took on the responsibilities of being an adult, I
was expected to respect that. I didn't think that was asking
too much.
#Post#: 22922--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: Jem Date: January 2, 2019, 8:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Wanaca link=topic=915.msg22921#msg22921
date=1546437801]
In my FOO, my parents considered me an adult when I took on the
full responsibilities of being an adult. It didn't matter how
many years I was alive. What mattered was what adult
responsibilities I assumed. They drilled into my head the
belief that responsibility and freedom go hand-in-hand. You
can't have one without the other. I tend to see things the same
way that they did.
I don't think it is a good comparison to compare a
self-supporting adult with a person who is still expecting
parents to support her/him. Yes, there are parents who try to
manipulate their adult (ie independent) children. That isn't
the case here.
The family Christmas sounds similar to what I celebrated---and
still do. It doesn't sound dull to me. Yet in my family,
Christmas and Thanksgiving were the only holidays we really
celebrated all year, so they were important. Two days out of
365. Until I took on the responsibilities of being an adult, I
was expected to respect that. I didn't think that was asking
too much.
[/quote]
POD. Unless and until a person is independent, they have to
consider how their choices affect their "benefactor." A person
who is "an adult" only when it suits him or her, and who expects
someone else to finance all or a portion of their life, is not
"an independent adult" who can call all the shots without
consequence.
Now, I'm not saying that the daughter should be prevented from
going to the beach with her friends, but to say that she is "an
adult" who can do what she wants isn't accurate, in my opinion.
While she is being supported by her parents, I think she has an
obligation to consider their wishes for her.
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