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Bad Manners and Brimstone
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#Post#: 22891--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: Amara Date: January 1, 2019, 6:15 pm
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Mary Sunshine Rain, perhaps I could have phrased it better but I
am NOT making fun of family and tradition. What I am pointing
out, in very strong terms, is that lording that over grown
children is the very best way to make sure they will pull away
and not want to come home (and if they do come they may bring a
lot of resentment with them). Let them go with best wishes. Keep
family traditions but do not force anyone into coming. Have fun
with them yourself. Your children should feel you support them
in their choices for holidays regardless of what those are.
#Post#: 22892--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LurkingGurl Date: January 1, 2019, 6:49 pm
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[quote author=Amara link=topic=915.msg22891#msg22891
date=1546388120]
Mary Sunshine Rain, perhaps I could have phrased it better but I
am NOT making fun of family and tradition. What I am pointing
out, in very strong terms, is that lording that over grown
children is the very best way to make sure they will pull away
and not want to come home (and if they do come they may bring a
lot of resentment with them). Let them go with best wishes. Keep
family traditions but do not force anyone into coming. Have fun
with them yourself. Your children should feel you support them
in their choices for holidays regardless of what those are.
[/quote]
Having raised several children, I disagree.
There are plenty of holidays that are not family oriented.
Christmas isn't one of them.
And expecting your first year uni student to spend Christmas
with the family isn't lording anything over anyone.
However, what I describe is the very essence of letting them
go--and not putting one's own interests first just like the 18
year old!
#Post#: 22893--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LurkingGurl Date: January 1, 2019, 7:10 pm
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[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=915.msg22883#msg22883
date=1546383272]
Wow.
Parents trying to control their adult children with money, or
punishing them for failing to show due fealty is the very
definition of toxic family dynamics.[/quote]
Not at all! It's a matter of priorities. Or are you actually
suggesting that the father is obligated to underwrite his adult
daughter's life?!
[quote]It is developmentally normal for teens and young adults
to prioritize friends, career, and socializing over lots of
family togetherness, and to want to shake up family traditions
into a new, more flexible, form.[/quote]
Yes, it is. But at this stage it's still a give and take. One
day together for the holiday can hardly be described as "lots of
family togetherness." It's simply an important day for her
parents for the family to be together. If it isn't important
for her, then what's wrong with mom and dad also
re-prioritizing? Why should they consider things important just
because she does if she can't do the same?
[quote]It is not emotionally normal or healthy for a parent to
become vindictive or threaten to cut off their children.
Especially over a single missed celebration, that apparently was
politely discussed with the family in advance.
[/quote]
It's not a "single missed celebration" It's an important family
holiday.
And there is nothing vindictive about it. It's about not
letting someone take advantage of you.
Just because I'm someone's parent doesn't mean I have to
underwrite their life. She doesn't get to claim to be an adult
and at the same time live off her parents. That's the very
definition of having your cake and eat it too.
Go to the beach with your friends some other time. This is
family time. Don't agree? Fine. But don't expect me to
continue to put myself out for you in major ways while you
ignore something important to me.
It's not vindictiveness, it's consequences. It's amazing how
"adult children" get a pass for dissing their parents while at
the same time relying on them. That's really very toxic. It's
using someone. That's what a spoiled child does, not an adult.
So, please spare me the "she's 18 and an adult." Nope. If she
were an adult, she would prioritize things in a way that honored
the sacrifice that her parents are making for her.
#Post#: 22894--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: TaurusGirl Date: January 1, 2019, 7:13 pm
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I'm in the majority here - the daughter should be able to spend
Christmas how she wants, and as a previous poster said, as long
as she is funding it herself.
How long is someone living at home expected to conform to the
parents' traditions? Regardless of whether she's completely
financially independent or not, 18 is plenty old enough to
decide how to spend a holiday. I would be singing a different
song if the daughter was expecting her parents to pay for the
trip, and get her to and from the location, but it doesn't sound
like this is the case.
As someone who moved out at 19, and was paying their own way at
15, I would heavily resent being told where I had to be on
Christmas or any other holiday.
#Post#: 22898--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LurkingGurl Date: January 1, 2019, 7:36 pm
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[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=915.msg22894#msg22894
date=1546391639]
I'm in the majority here - the daughter should be able to spend
Christmas how she wants, and as a previous poster said, as long
as she is funding it herself.
How long is someone living at home expected to conform to the
parents' traditions? Regardless of whether she's completely
financially independent or not, 18 is plenty old enough to
decide how to spend a holiday. I would be singing a different
song if the daughter was expecting her parents to pay for the
trip, and get her to and from the location, but it doesn't sound
like this is the case.
As someone who moved out at 19, and was paying their own way at
15, I would heavily resent being told where I had to be on
Christmas or any other holiday.
[/quote]
Not an important family holiday. Her birthday? Sure. But not
this holiday.
And she's not "paying for it herself." She can afford it
because her father is underwriting her living arrangements and
probably a good bit of her school expenses.
She has an obligation to honor that until she doesn't benefit
from it anymore.
There is no "regardless of whether she is financially
independent..." There sure is! Until you are using money that
you worked for, your decisions continue to have an impact on
other people. The money she is using for the trip that will
take her away from her family on an important family holiday is
money she could be using to pay for any of the expenses that her
father and mother are shelling out for her.
Parents give their adult children a lot of leeway in terms of
letting them enjoy a quality of life they could never afford
while on their way to attaining it themselves. The least that
adult child can do under such circumstances is be there for an
important family holiday.
#Post#: 22899--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LifeOnPluto Date: January 1, 2019, 7:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
OP here. My understanding is that Jessica was intending to fund
her share of the beach house herself, and make her own travel
arrangements to and from the coast.
To be clear, I was one of the people who advocated for letting
Jessica spend Christmas at the beach house. The main reason for
this, was that (as another poster said) John's Christmas Day
traditions sound pretty dull and stifling! (Not that I told John
this!). But I also feel that Jessica is a legal adult and old
enough to choose for herself where she wants to spend Christmas.
That said, I can completely see where John is coming from - I'm
not a parent, but "letting go" must sting sometimes. I guess
there's always the fear that if you "let them go", they won't
ever come back? John also said that these days, his family
doesn't actually get to spend much time together. Between work,
uni, school, sports, and other schedules, the four members of
his family are always in and out. Plus, Jessica socialises a lot
with her friends and boyfriend anyway (she sees him nearly every
day as it is), so I think he was looking forward to his family
spending some quality time together.
Also, John might be feeling a bit down, as he lost a parent
earlier this year. Said parent lived 3 hours away, so they
didn't spend Christmas Day together, but they'd normally catch
up in the week beforehand. This was John's first Christmas
without his parent, so it might have been extra-tough for him.
#Post#: 22900--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: SioCat Date: January 1, 2019, 7:50 pm
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It’s Jessicas Christmas too. She should get to decide how she
wants to celebrate it.
#Post#: 22904--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: LadyRexall Date: January 1, 2019, 9:43 pm
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[quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
link=topic=915.msg22864#msg22864 date=1546372911]
I agree that John is right to feel hurt.
There aren't a lot of holidays that center around family,
Christmas being pretty much the main one.
There are plenty of other weeks that she can run off with her
friends.
Frankly, as her parent, I would let her go. But, then I would
re-examine what I felt were my obligations to an 18 year old who
was making decisions to prioritize her friends and boyfriend
over a holiday that was very important to me and our family.
There are a lot of benefits to having a tight knit family. If
they were expecting her to celebrate her birthday or New Year's
with them, I would feel differently. But, Christmas is
different.
For some families, it's New Year's that is the main family
holiday. I know folks that could bow out of their Christmas
family celebration but would move heaven and earth to make sure
they were there for NYE!
The fact is that she knows that Christmas is an important family
holiday and she is choosing to put herself first. She can do
that, but then maybe John will stop putting her first as well.
I can understand a young person chafing at family obligations if
there are too many, but growing up means making tough choices.
And there are consequences to the choices we make.
[/quote]
Obviously at one point, John spent Christmas with his family
origin. Obviously at one point, John stopped spending Christmas
with his family of origin. The way op says she won’t go into
details why makes it sound like it’s not just that he now had a
wife and kids and wanted a nuclear celebration, but he may have
stopped the day he moved out from their home, or maybe even 10
years ago, or any time in between. If John was allowed to make
that decision and go his own way, why is he hurt that his
daughter has made a choice and gone her own way? And this may be
a one time trip. Nothing was said that his daughter decided to
@never@ spend Christmas with her nuclear family. John should be
a bit more respectful that his daughter has the RIGHT to choose
just as he did. And for the comments saying John needs to
reevaluate what he does for his daughter? Why? There’s no
indication that John is emotionally abusivecsnd would cut his
daughter off for simply spending one Christmas on her own. This
happens at one point. Does he think that when she’s grown and
married with kids she’ll still come to his house or spend
Christmas with him?
#Post#: 22905--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: guest657 Date: January 1, 2019, 9:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Mary Sunshine Rain
link=topic=915.msg22898#msg22898 date=1546392970]
[quote author=TaurusGirl link=topic=915.msg22894#msg22894
date=1546391639]
I'm in the majority here - the daughter should be able to spend
Christmas how she wants, and as a previous poster said, as long
as she is funding it herself.
How long is someone living at home expected to conform to the
parents' traditions? Regardless of whether she's completely
financially independent or not, 18 is plenty old enough to
decide how to spend a holiday. I would be singing a different
song if the daughter was expecting her parents to pay for the
trip, and get her to and from the location, but it doesn't sound
like this is the case.
As someone who moved out at 19, and was paying their own way at
15, I would heavily resent being told where I had to be on
Christmas or any other holiday.
[/quote]
Not an important family holiday. Her birthday? Sure. But not
this holiday.
And she's not "paying for it herself." She can afford it
because her father is underwriting her living arrangements and
probably a good bit of her school expenses.
She has an obligation to honor that until she doesn't benefit
from it anymore.
There is no "regardless of whether she is financially
independent..." There sure is! Until you are using money that
you worked for, your decisions continue to have an impact on
other people. The money she is using for the trip that will
take her away from her family on an important family holiday is
money she could be using to pay for any of the expenses that her
father and mother are shelling out for her.
Parents give their adult children a lot of leeway in terms of
letting them enjoy a quality of life they could never afford
while on their way to attaining it themselves. The least that
adult child can do under such circumstances is be there for an
important family holiday.
[/quote]
This is exactly what I meant about toxic family dynamics.
You appear to think that kids "owe" their parents for money
spent on them, and are supposed to pay it back by outward shows
of obedience, or loyalty, or filial piety, or whatever.
You repay money with money - adult children should contribute to
the household finances as best they can through rent, chores,
buying groceries, and/or helping support their parents when they
can no longer support themselves. Or by paying their parents'
support forward to the grandchildren, or by being good stewards
of the parents' finances if they have to act as a fiduciary, and
so forth.
You repay affection with affection and thoughtfulness. Now, if
you argued that it was thoughtless of Jessica to be away from
home on Christmas, particularly when they'd just lost a
parent/grandparent, I could see that. If you said John should
talk to Jessica about how that made him feel, and that he should
ask her to rethink her plans because of how much he and her mom
would miss her - sure. That's valid. It's not how I would feel,
but I can understand it.
But the idea that she's not entitled to spend the day away
because there's financial support involved? You are equating
money with affection. That's not love. It's extortion.
#Post#: 22906--------------------------------------------------
Re: Young adult spending Christmas with friends rather than fami
ly?
By: Tea Drinker Date: January 1, 2019, 9:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It sounds as though John and his family have been having
essentially the same Christmas every year, and I'm not surprised
Jessica isn't excited by it. There's nothing wrong with playing
board games, watching a movie at home, or going to church--but
you can do those any week of the year, and they may not feel
special to her. (I also suspect that, just as John assumed
without asking that Jessica wanted to spend Christmas with her
parents and younger brother, he may be incorrectly assuming thar
she shares his taste in movies.)
I've been an eighteen-year-old girl with a younger brother, and
neither of us was thrilled by the opportunity to spend time at
home with the other: even a few years age difference is a big
gap at that age, and not everyone is lucky enough to have a lot
in common with their siblings.
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