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       #Post#: 22332--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: TootsNYC
       Date: December 26, 2018, 8:44 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       My experience on the NYC subway is that children who are shorter
       than about 4'10" are not SAFE on a crowded subway unless they
       are sitting down--there isn't anywhere to hold on, except the
       poles. And the poles are often blocked by grownups.
       Also, in crowded places, it's easier to keep track of your kid
       if you can put her in "a spot" and trust that she will be there.
       Grownups on the NYC subway routinely get up from their seats to
       offer a place to any kid shorter than a sort-of-short adult. And
       then we often also offer the seat next to them to their parent.
       There there's age and attention span, and fidgety stuff. A
       10-year-old can be trusted to stand without whining or fidgeting
       for a longish journey. But a 6-y-o can't, really--not even a
       generally well-behaved 6yo. Any kid younger than that, whether
       they're mine or some other passengers' (or waiting-room
       person's), I want them in a spot so they will be more patient
       and easier to control.
       Safety changes the etiquette.
       #Post#: 22334--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: TootsNYC
       Date: December 26, 2018, 10:12 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: oogyda link ---
       >
       > [quote author=Rainbow link=topic=893.msg22252#msg22252
       date=1545822446]
       > In their place, I would have sat with my child on the platform
       (where noise wouldn't be so much of an issue) and wait it out.
       At most, if it didn't subside, I would hop on and off, maybe two
       stops at a time, to minimize bother to others (the volume of
       those little lungs was really something, believe me). Note that
       the metro system was reinforced for Xmas day, and the waiting
       time was about 3 minutes.
       >
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       This is completely unrealistic with one child, much less three.
       I can only assume that you do not have children and have not had
       much exposure to them.  I apologize if my assumptions are
       incorrect.
       [/quote]
       Can you imagine? Hopping on and off a relatively busy subway
       system with three kids and two adults? Plus a stroller?
       #Post#: 22339--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: Rainbow
       Date: December 27, 2018, 2:48 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Again, thank you for your responses! It is very interesting to
       read other perspectives :)
       It's true that I don't have children myself, although I do have
       frequent exposure to them. I ran it by a friend who has a
       similar family to the one in the story, along with your
       responses, and she was quite horrified. Unprompted, she
       immediately suggested the same option I did (i.e, hopping on and
       off) and said that no way would she allow other passengers to be
       subjected to a kid of hers screaming at the top of her lungs in
       a closed carriage for that long. Note that one of her kids is
       also fussy, so she has first-hand experience with that. She
       obviously has the advantage of being local, so she knows exactly
       how our metro system is set up. I understand that what I
       suggested may not be feasible in other metro systems.
       My comment about other families managing was in answer to those
       saying that it was safer for little children to sit than to
       stand. I was just pointing out that no-one else seems to think
       that in here, children generally stand with no safety issues at
       all. Most parents make children stand up for elderly people or
       people carrying parcels, etc. It is perfectly safe here.
       --- Quote from: oogyda link ---
       >
       > Absolutely no one is suggesting that everyone else should
       disembark to leave one family with the carriage to themselves.
       We are simply saying that if it bothered you that much, you
       should go somewhere else.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I probably didn't phrase it well. I mean that the family was
       bothering the whole carriage (you could tell). You guys say that
       the one who's bothered should take action, not the family who's
       causing the bother. Therefore, it follows that everyone who's
       bothered should disembark. If everyone who was bothered had
       disembarked, they would effectively have had the carriage to
       themselves.
       --- Quote from: Winterlight link ---
       >
       > [...] The other kids sitting down seems reasonable, the
       parents had enough on their hands without potentially having the
       little ones roaming the carriage, or falling over as the train
       lurches.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       Just one parent was engaged with the tantruming child at a time.
       The other was standing to the side with the empty stroller,
       doing nothing (probably bracing themselves for the next go). The
       older children were perfectly quiet, deeply embarrassed, and
       unlikely to roam the carriage. Actually, this is not something I
       have seen in here. Noise and activity levels may vary (which is
       normal and understandable, up to a point), but children always
       stay close to their parents. I have never seen children going
       up/down carriages, and I'm a frequent traveller. I was honestly
       surprised to see so many suggesting it as a likely option. It
       shows how different all of our experiences/expectations are! :)
       Again, in the grand scheme of things it's not a biggie, I just
       thought it would be interesting to discuss. And it has!
       #Post#: 22345--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: guest657
       Date: December 27, 2018, 6:10 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I'm still curious whether you would have taken the seat next to
       the crying baby if it were offered.
       #Post#: 22351--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: Rainbow
       Date: December 27, 2018, 8:24 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I wouldn't have taken the seat, but only because I prefer
       standing up. I'm sure others would have, though. The people who
       were standing next to the child were subjected to the same level
       of noise than if they had been sitting. It really wouldn't have
       made a difference.
       #Post#: 22358--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: oogyda
       Date: December 27, 2018, 9:12 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Rainbow link ---
       >
       >
       >
       > [quote author=oogyda link=topic=893.msg22291#msg22291
       date=1545846881]
       > Absolutely no one is suggesting that everyone else should
       disembark to leave one family with the carriage to themselves.
       We are simply saying that if it bothered you that much, you
       should go somewhere else.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I probably didn't phrase it well. I mean that the family was
       bothering the whole carriage (you could tell). You guys say that
       the one who's bothered should take action, not the family who's
       causing the bother. Therefore, it follows that everyone who's
       bothered should disembark. If everyone who was bothered had
       disembarked, they would effectively have had the carriage to
       themselves.
       
       [/quote]
       It depends entirely to what level someone is bothered.  Some
       people may be "bothered" enough to disembark.  Others might be
       "bothered" enough to glare at the family, but not disembark.
       Still others may not be "bothered" enough to even notice.
       I definitely think you should have disembarked and waited the 3
       minutes for the next train.
       #Post#: 22412--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: Tea Drinker
       Date: December 27, 2018, 6:22 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I don't know where "here" is, but depending on the design of
       your metro system, getting on and off trains every couple of
       stops could have significantly increased the amount of time that
       strangers were subjected to the noise: now it's not just an
       n-minute ride, it's that plus one or more several-minute waits
       for trains. And how annoying the noise would be depends whether
       the station is underground or outdoors, and for an underground
       station, the acoustics vary, as does the amount of noise the
       trains make. (Montreal trains are quieter than New York or
       Boston's; here in Boston the green line is especially noisy
       going into and out of Government Center.)
       #Post#: 22431--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: Kiwipinball
       Date: December 27, 2018, 9:41 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I also think there's a big difference about where this is
       happening. If this had happened at a restaurant or movie or
       something, I'd 100% agree that the screaming child should be
       removed. But here, the parents were presumably taking the metro
       because they needed to (whether they were going somewhere or
       trying to get home). And the other people on the metro, while
       presumably not thrilled, weren't really having a good time
       ruined. Public transportation is necessary (I'm using that
       somewhat loosely) to get where you need to go - I don't think
       most people expect to have a marvellous time on the public
       transportation - once they get where they're going, they can get
       away from the screaming child. I would not expect parents to get
       off and on the metro repeatedly to reduce other people's
       exposure. I expect that in some public places, but not public
       transportation.
       #Post#: 22444--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: Aleko
       Date: December 28, 2018, 1:55 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote ---
       > I definitely think you should have disembarked and waited the
       3 minutes for the next train.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       And what exactly would all that effort (because it certainly is
       a real effort to get 3 kids and a stroller on and off a crowded
       train, even when one of them isn't having a screaming fit) have
       achieved? They would just have inconvenienced a fresh
       carriageful of people. Then presumably you think they should
       have got off again at the next stop and waited another 3 minutes
       to inflict the screaming on another carriageful? And so on? Good
       grief.
       #Post#: 22449--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Screaming child in metro
   DIR By: oogyda
       Date: December 28, 2018, 7:12 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Aleko link ---
       >
       > [quote]I definitely think you should have disembarked and
       waited the 3 minutes for the next train.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       And what exactly would all that effort (because it certainly is
       a real effort to get 3 kids and a stroller on and off a crowded
       train, even when one of them isn't having a screaming fit) have
       achieved? They would just have inconvenienced a fresh
       carriageful of people. Then presumably you think they should
       have got off again at the next stop and waited another 3 minutes
       to inflict the screaming on another carriageful? And so on? Good
       grief.
       [/quote]
       Aleko!  Hold on!  I was responding to the OP in my post.  She
       had used some dirty logic to surmise I was saying that everyone
       who was annoyed should have left the carriage. I had said it
       would depend on the level to which a person was annoyed and that
       she should have disembarked (since this apparently really
       annoyed her).
       I agree that the family with the screaming child should not be
       expected to do so.
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