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#Post#: 21507--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: mime Date: December 14, 2018, 6:02 pm
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[quote author=lisastitch link=topic=870.msg21486#msg21486
date=1544820052]
[quote author=GardenGal link=topic=870.msg21419#msg21419
date=1544750406]
[quote author=lowspark link=topic=870.msg21366#msg21366
date=1544714465]
[quote author=Irked Purist link=topic=870.msg21309#msg21309
date=1544656483]
From a severely-secularist viewpoint I can actually see wanting
to detatch as much from the symbols of secular-type Xmas as the
overtly religious ones, whether that stems from being of a
different faith, or just not liking/wanting any of it. And I
sympathise with anyone trying to make that break because it's
quite hard to accomplish and to explain without sounding like
it's massively more objectionable than it truly is, because
plants and snowmen and countless other symbols aren't religious-
nope, but they definitely are Xmassy.
[/quote]
The bolded hits the nail squarely on the head. For example, many
people do not think a Christmas tree is a religious symbol and
simply cannot understand why someone who is Jewish for example,
might not want one in their home.
To someone who is Christian and religious, a Christmas tree
might seem secular because it really is an aspect of the secular
celebration of Christmas rather than the religious celebration.
But from a totally non-Christian point of view, it is still an
aspect of Christmas.
It's understandable that a religious Christian differentiates
between religious and secular. But from a Jewish perspective,
that differentiation doesn't matter. It's still a symbol/ritual
of a holiday I don't celebrate.
But back to the OP, a poinsettia really wouldn't bother me a
bit. But if it did, I would just offer it up to the other people
in the office by saying it just wasn't my cup of tea. It's
easier and more polite than bringing up the religious aspect
which at best is difficult to explain, and at worst, ends up
offending people who did nothing wrong.
[/quote]
Re: the things in red - that's it, exactly! Having been raised
Jewish, there is no such thing in my mind as a "secular"
Christmas. Absolutely everything associated with Christmas
seems at least faintly religious to me.
[/quote]
And as a Christian, I really wish we could separate "the mass of
Christ" celebrating His birth, from all the other winter
solstice trappings. I could celebrate both the religious
holiday of Christmas and the secular holiday of winter solstice,
if we could really separate them. We've dragged in things like
Christmas trees, and given them a religious symbolism, and I
have to fight through the secular to observe the religious.
Advent is meant to be a time of reflection, just as Lent is, and
the celebration of the Christmas season (as in the Twelve Days
of Christmas) should start on Christmas. It's very hard to be
reflective and contemplative when the stores are blasting
secular Christmas songs! (One of many reasons I try to do my
Christmas shopping early!)
[/quote]
This. There is so much clutter. I understand that non-Christians
see some things as part of some "Christmas culture" and don't
want part of it, just like a lot of us Christians see those same
things as part of secular culture that coincides with our
Christmas, and we're happier without it, too.
#Post#: 21517--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: LifeOnPluto Date: December 14, 2018, 10:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't see poinsettias to be overtly Christmas-y (and would
much rather have one than a company branded umbrella or
something!).
However, if the contractors felt strongly about not accepting
them, I think the best option would have been to have quietly
re-gifted them to someone else. Just leaving them abandoned in
the office seems a bit cold, to me. (And the woman who pulled
the face was definitely rude). At least they didn't chuck them
in the bin!
#Post#: 21587--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: Irked Purist Date: December 15, 2018, 5:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=lisastitch link=topic=870.msg21486#msg21486
date=1544820052]
And as a Christian, I really wish we could separate "the mass of
Christ" celebrating His birth, from all the other winter
solstice trappings. I could celebrate both the religious
holiday of Christmas and the secular holiday of winter solstice,
if we could really separate them. We've dragged in things like
Christmas trees, and given them a religious symbolism, and I
have to fight through the secular to observe the religious.
[/quote]
The secular bits aren't celebrating the Winter Solstice,
though. That's a religious celebration in itself, or a spiritual
one at least for those of us who observe it but who aren't
religious.
The secularisation of Xmas is one of the drawbacks of being a
dominant religion. It gets simplified, genericised bastardised
even, because it's 'tradition' or just What We Do instead of
coming from actual religious observance.
There was also some intentional conflation of Xmas with things
like the Solstice to gain that dominance.
I grew up with secular Xmas (albeit in a country with an
official state church, which simultaneously makes it harder to
separate, but conversely much less influential in public life)
so it was mostly presents lights trees dinner but with school
Nativity. Zero church. As an adult I dislike it, and as I say I
have my own beliefs now, but it would be a very hard battle to
convince the majority of people who celebrate 90% secular Xmas
that they're actually observing the Solstice.
Plus those of us who do celebrate the Solstice don't want the
secularisation problem either.
#Post#: 21590--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: ClothoMoirai Date: December 15, 2018, 6:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]
[quote author=lisastitch link=topic=870.msg21486#msg21486
date=1544820052]
And as a Christian, I really wish we could separate "the mass of
Christ" celebrating His birth, from all the other winter
solstice trappings. I could celebrate both the religious
holiday of Christmas and the secular holiday of winter solstice,
if we could really separate them. We've dragged in things like
Christmas trees, and given them a religious symbolism, and I
have to fight through the secular to observe the religious.
[/quote]
The secular bits aren't celebrating the Winter Solstice,
though. That's a religious celebration in itself, or a spiritual
one at least for those of us who observe it but who aren't
religious.
The secularisation of Xmas is one of the drawbacks of being a
dominant religion. It gets simplified, genericised bastardised
even, because it's 'tradition' or just What We Do instead of
coming from actual religious observance.
There was also some intentional conflation of Xmas with things
like the Solstice to gain that dominance.
Plus those of us who do celebrate the Solstice don't want the
secularisation problem either.
[/quote]
When I lived near Scranton, Pennsylvania, there was an incident
that it became public knowledge that a Wiccan group had held a
Solstice celebration. The region is overwhelmingly Christian and
most there did not take it well, even going so far as to argue
that Solstice celebrations began only after Christmas was
established. The furor continued for two full years and it lead
to banning of all religious use of a town-owned facility that
was managed as a rental hall when one faction of it demanded the
town prohibit the other from ever using the facility. Part of
the outrage went into incorrect claims that Christmas predates
Solstice celebrations and the latter was only created to
"attack" the former.
As it would happen there would subsequently be similar outrage
because a small town in the area hadn't decorated one year. They
had been unable to afford to replace their decorations after the
old ones were no longer up to electrical code ($50,000, which
worked out to $25 per resident - no small cost,) but so many
there insisted it was due to a motivation against their
religion.
I had to look it up the details because it's been so many years
but I did remember being raised with some claiming religious
significance of the plants. The traditions were that the
blossoms represent the star of Bethlehem and the red leaves
(which are due to specific cycles of light and dark for several
days) represent the blood of Jesus. The latter always struck me
as a curious one for the time of year and it felt like a
desperate attempt by some people to claim religious ownership of
the plants.
#Post#: 21593--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: GardenGal Date: December 15, 2018, 7:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Irked Purist link=topic=870.msg21587#msg21587
date=1544918284]
[quote author=lisastitch link=topic=870.msg21486#msg21486
date=1544820052]
And as a Christian, I really wish we could separate "the mass of
Christ" celebrating His birth, from all the other winter
solstice trappings. I could celebrate both the religious
holiday of Christmas and the secular holiday of winter solstice,
if we could really separate them. We've dragged in things like
Christmas trees, and given them a religious symbolism, and I
have to fight through the secular to observe the religious.
[/quote]
The secular bits aren't celebrating the Winter Solstice,
though. That's a religious celebration in itself, or a spiritual
one at least for those of us who observe it but who aren't
religious.
The secularisation of Xmas is one of the drawbacks of being a
dominant religion. It gets simplified, genericised bastardised
even, because it's 'tradition' or just What We Do instead of
coming from actual religious observance.
There was also some intentional conflation of Xmas with things
like the Solstice to gain that dominance.
I grew up with secular Xmas (albeit in a country with an
official state church, which simultaneously makes it harder to
separate, but conversely much less influential in public life)
so it was mostly presents lights trees dinner but with school
Nativity. Zero church. As an adult I dislike it, and as I say I
have my own beliefs now, but it would be a very hard battle to
convince the majority of people who celebrate 90% secular Xmas
that they're actually observing the Solstice.
Plus those of us who do celebrate the Solstice don't want the
secularisation problem either.
[/quote]
ITA. My family has celebrated the Winter (and Summer)
Solstice(s) for 40+ years. For us as atheists this holiday has
nothing whatsoever to do with Christmas, either religious
Christmas or "secular" Christmas. We celebrate the changing of
the seasons and that is all. When we did have a tree we had
only secular ornaments and put a big sun finial on the top. The
Winter Solstice is the shortest day of the year, and the sun
will return with longer days the day after the solstice. The
Summer Solstice is the longest day of the year, and the sun will
set earlier every day after that.
#Post#: 21601--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: Aleko Date: December 16, 2018, 1:43 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]It's bad etiquette to assume everyone is of the same
culture. [/quote]
But it's also bad etiquette to exclude people, or treat them
differently, because they're not of the same culture. How do we
suppose those two employees would have felt if the management
had produced a poinsettia for everyone else and a fern for them?
Or nothing for them at all, on account of these are Christmas
presents and they 'obviously' wouldn't want one of those? (But
in fact, as Mary Sunshine Rain correctly said, "The gift giving
itself is related to Christmas." If they were happy to accept an
umbrella or a tote bag in previous years, they have participated
in that Christmas activity.
And why not? I had an Indian colleague who would bring in a box
of special Diwali sweets for the office on that Hindu holiday.
She was the only Hindu in the office but all of us were happy to
accept a couple and thus participate, however minimally, in that
religious event, whatever our religion.
#Post#: 27565--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: bopper Date: March 12, 2019, 2:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If they gave out evergreen wreaths with decorations, or small
pine trees with decorations...you wouldn't think that is for
Christmas?
If someone gave out potato pancake making sets, you wouldn't
think that is for Hanukkah?
#Post#: 27573--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: Hanna Date: March 12, 2019, 5:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I only found out this past year that two of my coworkers in
England, one Muslin and the other Hindu decorate and celebrate
the non-religious aspects of Christmas. Both said they happily
do this for their kids. I felt kind of dumb for assuming
anything about how they spend the day.
#Post#: 30772--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: Gellchom Date: May 9, 2019, 1:31 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=lisastitch link=topic=870.msg21392#msg21392
date=1544729261]
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=870.msg21371#msg21371
date=1544715686]
[quote author=Songbird link=topic=870.msg21362#msg21362
date=1544712518]
In my job I sometimes receive gifts from vendors. One December
our vendor sent each of us a gift from a florist. It was a
centerpiece created from pine branches and those shiny glass
balls used for Christmas tree ornaments, clearly intended to be
used at Christmas dinner. I'm Jewish. I thanked the vendor and
gave the gift to a coworker who didn't do business with that
vendor.
[/quote]
Honestly what you have described just sounds like an ordinary
winter flat-surface decoration to me! Unless the balls said
"Merry Christmas" or had pictures of the nativity scene on them,
I wouldn't necessarily think of them as being Christmasy as much
as just seasonal!
[/quote]
But the season is Christmas. Between pine branches (as if from
a Christmas tree) and ornaments to be put on a Christmas tree,
it reflects the Christmas season.
There are people of other faiths who do choose to celebrate the
secular Christmas season (snow, snowmen, poinsettias, etc.) if
they don't celebrate the religious aspects. However, assuming
that someone of another faith is happy to celebrate the secular
parts of Christmas is a pretty big assumption.
[/quote]
Accidentally hit "disagree" when I meant to hit "agree," and I
don't know how to fix it.
I think that this is very well put. I know it's hard for people
to understand, especially because many non-Christians do do some
Christmasy things, but this kind of thing makes many of us feel
uncomfortable. No, it's not "offensive," and it's not pushing
religion on anyone, and, yes, of course we understand that the
intentions are kind and a gift is a gift, at worst a slightly
tone-deaf one. But it often still feels like pressure to
assimilate to the dominant culture, irrespective of any
religious content. Secular vs. religious simply isn't the
point. I know people are trying to be inclusive, and in their
favorite holiday at that. But many of us would rather be
appreciated for who and what we are than being told that
Christmas is "everyone's holiday," so we should join in.
In fact, I am delighted to be invited to attend, as a guest, a
friend's religious celebration than being expected to join in a
general secular celebration myself. To me, a poinsettia looks
Christmas-y, even though of course not religious. I would not
be comfortable decorating my home with them -- or holly or shiny
balls or reindeer or Santa or any of the other secular Christmas
items.
#Post#: 30773--------------------------------------------------
Re: But you know that's not my Holiday.
By: Gellchom Date: May 9, 2019, 1:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Aleko link=topic=870.msg21601#msg21601
date=1544946189]
[quote]It's bad etiquette to assume everyone is of the same
culture. [/quote]
But it's also bad etiquette to exclude people, or treat them
differently, because they're not of the same culture. How do we
suppose those two employees would have felt if the management
had produced a poinsettia for everyone else and a fern for them?
Or nothing for them at all, on account of these are Christmas
presents and they 'obviously' wouldn't want one of those? (But
in fact, as Mary Sunshine Rain correctly said, "The gift giving
itself is related to Christmas." If they were happy to accept an
umbrella or a tote bag in previous years, they have participated
in that Christmas activity.
And why not? I had an Indian colleague who would bring in a box
of special Diwali sweets for the office on that Hindu holiday.
She was the only Hindu in the office but all of us were happy to
accept a couple and thus participate, however minimally, in that
religious event, whatever our religion.
[/quote]
This raises an interesting point. And it isn't simple.
For one thing, fair or not, it's simply not the same to compare
assuming or even sharing the dominant culture with sharing a
minority culture. The same as some people argue (right or
wrong, and please let's not get sidetracked on it) about
cultural appropriation when westerners wear saris or kimonos but
not when Asians wear jeans. There are rational arguments and
legitimate feelings on all sides of the subject, but it's folly
to pretend that it's all identical.
I also see a huge difference between what the employer decides
is an appropriate gift for all the employees and what one
employee decides to share with her colleagues. If my employer
gave out tins of Christmas cookies to everyone, that would feel
very different to me from a Christian colleague bringing in
Christmas cookies for everyone, in the manner in which the Hindu
colleague shared Diwali treats. And as a matter of fact, as I
myself did recently, bringing hamentaschen (Purim cookies) to a
rehearsal to share with my fellow cast members.
It just seems so simple. Why not just choose something that
isn't associated with Christmas? If that would be a problem, if
it really MUST be something Christmassy, then it really is
assimilationist pressure.
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