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#Post#: 24752--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: guest657 Date: January 27, 2019, 2:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24745#msg24745
date=1548612563]
[quote author=BeagleMommy link=topic=863.msg24596#msg24596
date=1548364886]
... A security guard noticed a student was teary-eyed and asked
if she was okay. She mentioned getting a failing grade. He
hugged her. He was terminated because the student reported him
for "inappropriate contact". ... [/quote]
Okay, obviously he shouldn't have touched her, but I have to
wonder if the hug itself really was of an 'inappropriate''
nature? A full frontal hard hug that he pulled her into, or a
very gentle shoulder squeeze type hug that any of us might offer
a friend or acquaintance who was feeling down about something?
I absolutely believe that inappropriate behavior should be
reported and that there should be consequences, but I do worry a
bit that some people might be carrying things just a wee bit too
far.
We are already in a situation where because so much
"socializing" seems to take place on people's iPhones people
rarely even converse directly face to face with one another,
much less show those normal and natural small physical signs of
affection. I guess it's necessary for people to protect
themselves, but it just seems so sad.
[/quote]
Inappropriate does not automatically equal sexual. His
intentions or the style of the hug are irrelevant.
If she didn't want the hug, or he moved into the hug and she
wasn't comfortable rebuffing him because of his age/job/the fact
that she'd have to go past him every day, then it was
inappropriate. It's not about whether he was deliberately being
sexual or creepy. It's about consent and the power dynamic.
If she was crying and embraced him, or if he said, "oh I'm
sorry, do you want a hug?" and she said "yes," then I don't
think he should have been disciplined. But I would assume the
school has HR processes like any other workplace, and
reports/complaints are investigated before people are fired.
#Post#: 24764--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: gramma dishes Date: January 27, 2019, 3:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24752#msg24752
date=1548619376]
Inappropriate does not automatically equal sexual. His
intentions or the style of the hug are irrelevant.
If she didn't want the hug, or he moved into the hug and she
wasn't comfortable rebuffing him because of his age/job/the fact
that she'd have to go past him every day, then it was
inappropriate. It's not about whether he was deliberately being
sexual or creepy. It's about consent and the power dynamic.
If she was crying and embraced him, or if he said, "oh I'm
sorry, do you want a hug?" and she said "yes," then I don't
think he should have been disciplined. But I would assume the
school has HR processes like any other workplace, and
reports/complaints are investigated before people are fired.
[/quote]
Oh yes. I know you're absolutely right. Yet, it still seems
we're missing out on a lot of sweet spontaneity that many of us
enjoyed a few years ago. Things have changed and all things
considered, I agree it's good that the behavior bar has been
moved higher -- much higher.
#Post#: 24766--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: guest657 Date: January 27, 2019, 4:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24764#msg24764
date=1548624649]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24752#msg24752
date=1548619376]
Inappropriate does not automatically equal sexual. His
intentions or the style of the hug are irrelevant.
If she didn't want the hug, or he moved into the hug and she
wasn't comfortable rebuffing him because of his age/job/the fact
that she'd have to go past him every day, then it was
inappropriate. It's not about whether he was deliberately being
sexual or creepy. It's about consent and the power dynamic.
If she was crying and embraced him, or if he said, "oh I'm
sorry, do you want a hug?" and she said "yes," then I don't
think he should have been disciplined. But I would assume the
school has HR processes like any other workplace, and
reports/complaints are investigated before people are fired.
[/quote]
Oh yes. I know you're absolutely right. Yet, it still seems
we're missing out on a lot of sweet spontaneity that many of us
enjoyed a few years ago. Things have changed and all things
considered, I agree it's good that the behavior bar has been
moved higher -- much higher.
[/quote]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to it.
Nobody is preventing or discouraging people from spontaneously
exchanging affection that they both want to. Nobody is missing
out on anything. People who actually have good intentions to be
kind and sweet are learning empathy. They are becoming more
aware of how people feel who aren't as touchy-feely as they are.
This is unequivocally a good thing.
I'm a hugger. I offer hugs all the time. Sometimes people want
them, sometimes they don't. It costs me absolutely zero to
refrain from grabbing, but simply offer my upraised palms and/or
say, "hug?" And it costs me zero if they say no. There is no
loss of spontaneity or sweetness at all.
But if I were in a position of authority or power over someone
else, particularly at work or school, I wouldn't even do that
unless it were a truly dire and exceptional situation. Because
those are social behaviors, not work or school behaviors. And
being overly familiar and blurring the lines between work and
social or family relationships is unprofessional, presumptuous,
and out of place.
#Post#: 24772--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: gramma dishes Date: January 27, 2019, 7:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24766#msg24766
date=1548627874]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to
it.[/quote]
I missed the part where he grabbed her.
#Post#: 24801--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: guest657 Date: January 28, 2019, 9:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24772#msg24772
date=1548637689]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24766#msg24766
date=1548627874]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to
it.[/quote]
I missed the part where he grabbed her.
[/quote]
She didn't want his hug. If she wanted him to hug her, she would
not have reported him for misconduct.
What word would you use for someone putting their hands on you
or putting their arms around you against your wishes?
#Post#: 24809--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: gramma dishes Date: January 28, 2019, 10:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24801#msg24801
date=1548690293]
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24772#msg24772
date=1548637689]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24766#msg24766
date=1548627874]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to
it.[/quote]
I missed the part where he grabbed her.
[/quote]
She didn't want his hug. If she wanted him to hug her, she would
not have reported him for misconduct.
What word would you use for someone putting their hands on you
or putting their arms around you against your wishes?
[/quote]
Yes, you're probably right, but I wasn't there. I didn't see
what happened or how it happened. Just because a person reports
someone for misconduct doesn't necessarily mean they've really
done anything horribly egregious. There are certain people out
there who do quite enjoy getting others in trouble.
#Post#: 24811--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: NyaChan Date: January 28, 2019, 11:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24809#msg24809
date=1548693177]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24801#msg24801
date=1548690293]
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24772#msg24772
date=1548637689]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24766#msg24766
date=1548627874]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to
it.[/quote]
I missed the part where he grabbed her.
[/quote]
She didn't want his hug. If she wanted him to hug her, she would
not have reported him for misconduct.
What word would you use for someone putting their hands on you
or putting their arms around you against your wishes?
[/quote]
Yes, you're probably right, but I wasn't there. I didn't see
what happened or how it happened. Just because a person reports
someone for misconduct doesn't necessarily mean they've really
done anything horribly egregious. There are certain people out
there who do quite enjoy getting others in trouble.
[/quote]
In my experience there are far, far more people out there who so
want to avoid being seen as making a fuss or causing others
trouble or making a mistake that they will keep quiet or speak
up only in dire need. And yet when one of them finally tries to
stand up for themselves a chorus of people claiming that the
world is full of malicious people just waiting for a chance to
lie to ruin someone else’s life does their best to cast doubt on
them.
#Post#: 24831--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: Jayhawk Date: January 28, 2019, 2:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24801#msg24801
date=1548690293]
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24772#msg24772
date=1548637689]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24766#msg24766
date=1548627874]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to
it.[/quote]
I missed the part where he grabbed her.
[/quote]
She didn't want his hug. If she wanted him to hug her, she would
not have reported him for misconduct.
What word would you use for someone putting their hands on you
or putting their arms around you against your wishes?
[/quote]
Battery
#Post#: 24848--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: mime Date: January 28, 2019, 6:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jayhawk link=topic=863.msg24831#msg24831
date=1548706829]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24801#msg24801
date=1548690293]
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24772#msg24772
date=1548637689]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24766#msg24766
date=1548627874]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to
it.[/quote]
I missed the part where he grabbed her.
[/quote]
She didn't want his hug. If she wanted him to hug her, she would
not have reported him for misconduct.
What word would you use for someone putting their hands on you
or putting their arms around you against your wishes?
[/quote]
Battery
[/quote]
Or "misread signal", or "overstepped" or other words that
acknowledge that his action was unwanted, but don't imply he was
actually *trying* to assault the girl or make her feel
threatened. Sure, he has something to learn here about other
peoples' boundaries, but to label him in a way that implies
something untrue or unproven about his character is wrong.
#Post#: 24855--------------------------------------------------
Re: Why a boss should not hug his subordinates, ever
By: guest657 Date: January 28, 2019, 6:44 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=pjeans link=topic=863.msg24848#msg24848
date=1548721262]
[quote author=Jayhawk link=topic=863.msg24831#msg24831
date=1548706829]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24801#msg24801
date=1548690293]
[quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=863.msg24772#msg24772
date=1548637689]
[quote author=Anon4Now link=topic=863.msg24766#msg24766
date=1548627874]
Grabbing somebody who doesn't want your hug isn't sweet
spontaneous affection. That's literally all there is to
it.[/quote]
I missed the part where he grabbed her.
[/quote]
She didn't want his hug. If she wanted him to hug her, she would
not have reported him for misconduct.
What word would you use for someone putting their hands on you
or putting their arms around you against your wishes?
[/quote]
Battery
[/quote]
Or "misread signal", or "overstepped" or other words that
acknowledge that his action was unwanted, but don't imply he was
actually *trying* to assault the girl or make her feel
threatened. Sure, he has something to learn here about other
peoples' boundaries, but to label him in a way that implies
something untrue or unproven about his character is wrong.
[/quote]
I think "fired for inappropriate contact with a student" is
precisely correct.
He made contact. It was inappropriate. He was fired.
I no longer buy the argument that people put their hands on
others without consent because they "have something to learn."
The man was apparently able to get a job and get through an
ordinary day without getting beaten up or arrested.
Which means he is perfectly capable of understanding people's
boundaries when he cares to. The only thing he needed to learn
was, "Yes, the same rules apply to everyone. Even weepy young
ladies."
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