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       #Post#: 21694--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: Chez Miriam Date: December 17, 2018, 11:26 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Sheena link=topic=846.msg21690#msg21690
       date=1545065476]
       [quote author=wonderfullyanonymous
       link=topic=846.msg21574#msg21574 date=1544905013]
       Make sure that Ava knows it's okay to tell Tina why she is
       avoiding her, if she is asked. Tina needs to hear it from a
       peer, if she is curious as to why she is being avoided.
       [/quote]
       I kind of disagree with this. I don't think Ava needs to justify
       anything and I don't want her drawn into a conversation with
       Tina that would most likely end in Tina screaming at Ava about
       what a terrible person she is.
       Unfortunately, I don't think that Tina would be receptive enough
       of the message Ava would be sending to make it worth anyone's
       while.
       [/quote]
       From what you've said, Tina's upbringing has never encouraged
       her to question whether she should have a tantrum to get her
       'needs' met, so I think it highly unlikely that she would even
       think of asking about another pupil's feelings.
       But wonderfullyanonymous is right in saying that if Tina asks,
       Ava can just say "I don't like being around you when you scream
       at me".
       I know it's a long time since I was at school, but I'm surprised
       that the kind of behaviour [level of noise] exhibited by Tina
       isn't being investigated - our playground attendants would have
       pounced on raised voices, let alone screaming tantrums.
       #Post#: 21705--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: Sweet Jane Date: December 17, 2018, 1:32 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=846.msg21694#msg21694
       date=1545067563]
       [quote author=Sheena link=topic=846.msg21690#msg21690
       date=1545065476]
       [quote author=wonderfullyanonymous
       link=topic=846.msg21574#msg21574 date=1544905013]
       Make sure that Ava knows it's okay to tell Tina why she is
       avoiding her, if she is asked. Tina needs to hear it from a
       peer, if she is curious as to why she is being avoided.
       [/quote]
       I kind of disagree with this. I don't think Ava needs to justify
       anything and I don't want her drawn into a conversation with
       Tina that would most likely end in Tina screaming at Ava about
       what a terrible person she is.
       Unfortunately, I don't think that Tina would be receptive enough
       of the message Ava would be sending to make it worth anyone's
       while.
       [/quote]
       From what you've said, Tina's upbringing has never encouraged
       her to question whether she should have a tantrum to get her
       'needs' met, so I think it highly unlikely that she would even
       think of asking about another pupil's feelings.
       But wonderfullyanonymous is right in saying that if Tina asks,
       Ava can just say "I don't like being around you when you scream
       at me".
       I know it's a long time since I was at school, but I'm surprised
       that the kind of behaviour [level of noise] exhibited by Tina
       isn't being investigated - our playground attendants would have
       pounced on raised voices, let alone screaming tantrums.
       [/quote]
       Tina's not the kind of kid who would introspectively ask why Ava
       isn't playing with her anymore, so you're right that it's
       probably a moot point. But if she *did* ask, it would not be
       nicely or calmly and more like a confrontation.  (This is how
       she works. She alienates a group of kids then angrily confronts
       them for not wanting to play with her. And then her mother will
       complain to the school about how Tina is being bullied again. I
       know many kids, including Ava, have had to deal with the
       school's conflict resolution system thanks to Tina.  One year we
       went through it three times.)
       As for supervision at school, there isn't enough playground
       supervision and they're more concerned at preventing incidents
       that would raise the school's insurance rates, so they're
       focused on the playground equipment. Verbal arguments are not on
       their radar, no matter the volume. (I know that's bad, we just
       have to get through a few more months and we'll be done with
       this place.)
       #Post#: 21706--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: Chez Miriam Date: December 17, 2018, 1:36 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Sheena link=topic=846.msg21705#msg21705
       date=1545075146]
       [quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=846.msg21694#msg21694
       date=1545067563]
       [quote author=Sheena link=topic=846.msg21690#msg21690
       date=1545065476]
       [quote author=wonderfullyanonymous
       link=topic=846.msg21574#msg21574 date=1544905013]
       Make sure that Ava knows it's okay to tell Tina why she is
       avoiding her, if she is asked. Tina needs to hear it from a
       peer, if she is curious as to why she is being avoided.
       [/quote]
       I kind of disagree with this. I don't think Ava needs to justify
       anything and I don't want her drawn into a conversation with
       Tina that would most likely end in Tina screaming at Ava about
       what a terrible person she is.
       Unfortunately, I don't think that Tina would be receptive enough
       of the message Ava would be sending to make it worth anyone's
       while.
       [/quote]
       From what you've said, Tina's upbringing has never encouraged
       her to question whether she should have a tantrum to get her
       'needs' met, so I think it highly unlikely that she would even
       think of asking about another pupil's feelings.
       But wonderfullyanonymous is right in saying that if Tina asks,
       Ava can just say "I don't like being around you when you scream
       at me".
       I know it's a long time since I was at school, but I'm surprised
       that the kind of behaviour [level of noise] exhibited by Tina
       isn't being investigated - our playground attendants would have
       pounced on raised voices, let alone screaming tantrums.
       [/quote]
       Tina's not the kind of kid who would introspectively ask why Ava
       isn't playing with her anymore, so you're right that it's
       probably a moot point. But if she *did* ask, it would not be
       nicely or calmly and more like a confrontation.  (This is how
       she works. She alienates a group of kids then angrily confronts
       them for not wanting to play with her. And then her mother will
       complain to the school about how Tina is being bullied again. I
       know many kids, including Ava, have had to deal with the
       school's conflict resolution system thanks to Tina.  One year we
       went through it three times.)
       As for supervision at school, there isn't enough playground
       supervision and they're more concerned at preventing incidents
       that would raise the school's insurance rates, so they're
       focused on the playground equipment. Verbal arguments are not on
       their radar, no matter the volume. (I know that's bad, we just
       have to get through a few more months and we'll be done with
       this place.)
       [/quote]
       Thanks, Sheena, that clarifies a lot of points.
       In that case, I think Ava should just avoid her, and hope to get
       few the next few months without any Tina dramas.
       Tina's mum really is setting her up for a lifetime of loneliness
       and unhappiness, from the sounds of it. :'(
       #Post#: 21712--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: Kimberami Date: December 17, 2018, 2:09 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Sheena link=topic=846.msg21705#msg21705
       date=1545075146]
       [quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=846.msg21694#msg21694
       date=1545067563]
       [quote author=Sheena link=topic=846.msg21690#msg21690
       date=1545065476]
       [quote author=wonderfullyanonymous
       link=topic=846.msg21574#msg21574 date=1544905013]
       Make sure that Ava knows it's okay to tell Tina why she is
       avoiding her, if she is asked. Tina needs to hear it from a
       peer, if she is curious as to why she is being avoided.
       [/quote]
       I kind of disagree with this. I don't think Ava needs to justify
       anything and I don't want her drawn into a conversation with
       Tina that would most likely end in Tina screaming at Ava about
       what a terrible person she is.
       Unfortunately, I don't think that Tina would be receptive enough
       of the message Ava would be sending to make it worth anyone's
       while.
       [/quote]
       From what you've said, Tina's upbringing has never encouraged
       her to question whether she should have a tantrum to get her
       'needs' met, so I think it highly unlikely that she would even
       think of asking about another pupil's feelings.
       But wonderfullyanonymous is right in saying that if Tina asks,
       Ava can just say "I don't like being around you when you scream
       at me".
       I know it's a long time since I was at school, but I'm surprised
       that the kind of behaviour [level of noise] exhibited by Tina
       isn't being investigated - our playground attendants would have
       pounced on raised voices, let alone screaming tantrums.
       [/quote]
       Tina's not the kind of kid who would introspectively ask why Ava
       isn't playing with her anymore, so you're right that it's
       probably a moot point. But if she *did* ask, it would not be
       nicely or calmly and more like a confrontation.  (This is how
       she works. She alienates a group of kids then angrily confronts
       them for not wanting to play with her. And then her mother will
       complain to the school about how Tina is being bullied again. I
       know many kids, including Ava, have had to deal with the
       school's conflict resolution system thanks to Tina.  One year we
       went through it three times.)
       As for supervision at school, there isn't enough playground
       supervision and they're more concerned at preventing incidents
       that would raise the school's insurance rates, so they're
       focused on the playground equipment. Verbal arguments are not on
       their radar, no matter the volume. (I know that's bad, we just
       have to get through a few more months and we'll be done with
       this place.)
       [/quote]
       Could you preemptively go to the school regarding the matter?
       Maybe you can head off the intervention at the pass. The school
       must be aware of Tina's issues. Let them know that Tina is the
       bully not the bullied.
       #Post#: 21735--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: wonderfullyanonymous Date: December 17, 2018, 6:50 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       And then her mother will complain to the school about how Tina
       is being bullied again. I know many kids, including Ava, have
       had to deal with the school's conflict resolution system thanks
       to Tina.  One year we went through it three times.)
       If her mother is doing this, then Tina could be used to getting
       her way by screaming and throwing tantrums. IMO, her mother may
       not be disciplining, telling her no, or giving her limitations,
       i.e., whatever Tina wants Tina gets. When something then doesn't
       go Tina's way, then instead of it being Tina's fault through her
       own actions, it's every one else's fault.
       #Post#: 21750--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: Winterlight Date: December 18, 2018, 12:46 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I'm feeling a little sorry for Tina. Her mom is not doing her
       any favors with this nonsense.
       #Post#: 21774--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: gramma dishes Date: December 18, 2018, 10:07 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Winterlight link=topic=846.msg21750#msg21750
       date=1545115595]
       I'm feeling a little sorry for Tina. Her mom is not doing her
       any favors with this nonsense.
       [/quote]
       But neither is the school if they're letting that mom get by
       with it!  As an ex-teacher this situation makes me furious.
       #Post#: 21781--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: Winterlight Date: December 18, 2018, 10:46 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Yeah, I think the adults involved* are letting Tina down, and
       longterm it's going to cause her a lot of problems. They are
       setting her up for a life of tantruming to get what she wants,
       and it's not going to serve her well.
       *Not the OP, Tina's mom and the school
       #Post#: 21835--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: TootsNYC Date: December 18, 2018, 9:13 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=846.msg21668#msg21668
       date=1545054891]
       [quote author=wonderfullyanonymous
       link=topic=846.msg21574#msg21574 date=1544905013]
       Make sure that Ava knows it's okay to tell Tina why she is
       avoiding her, if she is asked. Tina needs to hear it from a
       peer, if she is curious as to why she is being avoided.
       [/quote]
       ^ This.
       When Tina was "just" being mean to Ava and her friends, she's
       just being 'not a nice person', but when she shouted at Sally,
       she was being a bully to a child she was in charge of helping.
       That sort of thing seems even worse to me than being toxic to
       your peers who are an age where they can decide whether to be
       friends or not.
       [/quote]
       I kind of feel like that's putting too much responsibility on
       Ava. She's in middle school--it's not her job to "school" Tina.
       I would say that Mom would help Ava a lot by figuring out what
       TO say, and role-playing the saying of it.
       but Ava doesn't have to confront Tina; it is a perfectly
       legitimate choice to avoid the cricitism completely.
       #Post#: 21848--------------------------------------------------
       Re: How not to be the Mean Girl to a mean child - update #24
       By: gramma dishes Date: December 19, 2018, 9:06 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=846.msg21835#msg21835
       date=1545189204]
       [quote author=Chez Miriam link=topic=846.msg21668#msg21668
       date=1545054891]
       [quote author=wonderfullyanonymous
       link=topic=846.msg21574#msg21574 date=1544905013]
       Make sure that Ava knows it's okay to tell Tina why she is
       avoiding her, if she is asked. Tina needs to hear it from a
       peer, if she is curious as to why she is being avoided.
       [/quote]
       ^ This.
       When Tina was "just" being mean to Ava and her friends, she's
       just being 'not a nice person', but when she shouted at Sally,
       she was being a bully to a child she was in charge of helping.
       That sort of thing seems even worse to me than being toxic to
       your peers who are an age where they can decide whether to be
       friends or not.
       [/quote]
       I kind of feel like that's putting too much responsibility on
       Ava. She's in middle school--it's not her job to "school" Tina.
       I would say that Mom would help Ava a lot by figuring out what
       TO say, and role-playing the saying of it.
       but Ava doesn't have to confront Tina; it is a perfectly
       legitimate choice to avoid the cricitism completely.
       [/quote]
       "  ... if she is asked."  No, Ava should not confront Tina, but
       if Tina asks, it's the most natural thing in the world to say
       "Because you're mean and we don't like being around mean
       people."  It's the way kids talk and the way they have always
       talked.  Kids sometimes do a good job of keeping each other in
       line if the parents (and in this particular case, the school)
       stay out of it.
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