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#Post#: 19995--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: AtHomeRose Date: November 26, 2018, 3:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Jem link=topic=831.msg19864#msg19864
date=1543200737]
[quote author=AtHomeRose link=topic=831.msg19857#msg19857
date=1543196760]
[quote author=Jem link=topic=831.msg19846#msg19846
date=1543190994]
I am struggling to understand how people are thinking showing up
at 2:00 is appropriate given the “dinner will be served between
1:00 and 2:00.” This isn’t a breakfast buffet at a hotel serving
from 6:00-8:00 am. This is a gathering of friend and family and
the host specifically said dinner would be served starting at
some point BETWEEN one and two. There was a specific meal time
provided. I am not a cook, but I know enough to grasp that
especially for certain types of meals and certainly for large
groups of people one cannot always pinpoint exactly when dinner
will be ready to be served. But this likely isn’t box Mac &
Cheese where you know it will take about 8 minutes to prepare
and serve.
When people go to a restaurant surely they grasp that their
meals may be to the table in 10 minutes or perhaps closer to 45
minutes depending on the type of restaurant and what they order?
[/quote]
There was not a specific meal time. You can argue about
interpretation and meaning and what the guests should have known
or understood but the OP said she gave a time range, between 1
and 2. A range is not a specific meal time.
I think it would be appropriate to show up at 2:00 to an
invitation worded like this because when I have used this
wording or received an invitation with this wording it has meant
we would sit down to eat when all the guest where there and the
food was ready between 1 and 2. That means I can get there at 2
and still be on time to sit down and eat.
[/quote]
I don’t understand why you would think this? The invitation made
it clear that the meal would be served possibly at 1:00, but
between 1:00 and 2:00. Why would you show up at 2:00?
[/quote]
I am telling you I think this BECAUSE when I have used this
wording in an invitation, I have meant food will be served when
all the guest are here and food is ready between the two times I
listed on the invitation. It is also what has been meant when my
group of friends and family use this wording in an invitation. I
think it because that is what I mean when I say it, I would not
consider guests arriving to my meal at 2 late.
It is obviously not your interpretation of the wording and it is
clearly not what Humm wanted to communicate with the invitation,
but it is the interpretation I and the people I socialize with
would make.
I think the take away message is when you want people there by a
specific time give a specific time. If you are not comfortable
listing a specific meal time (and fair enough cooking a large
meal you only cook once a year can be daunting with exact
timing) give a specific arrival time. If Hmmm’s original text
had said “We are looking forward to seeing everyone for
Thanksgiving, please arrive by 1:00, but feel free to come as
early as noon”. I don’t think there would be any confutation or
argument that those arriving at 2 are rude. But if you list a
time range you are going to get different interpretations and
people showing up at the end of the range thinking/feeling they
are on time.
#Post#: 19997--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: Hanna Date: November 26, 2018, 3:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=VorFemme link=topic=831.msg19954#msg19954
date=1543251529]
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=831.msg19888#msg19888
date=1543236816]
I suspect if one these people who have trouble understanding the
concept of “the meal will begin between 1 and 2” were told “The
local bank is giving away a million dollars to each person
present some time between 1 and 2” they would get there before 1
without any confusion.
Chronically late people with no medical reason just think their
time is more valuable than everyone else’s.
[/quote]
Or just don't *think* is what I've observed a few times - they
know that dinner starts at X, but they just don't think about
how long it can take to drive from their house to the place
where they'll be eating and don't allow enough time for the
trip. Or allow any time at all for "things to happen" - such as
detours due to construction, needing to stop to get fuel, pick
up a hostess gift, accidents, car trouble, or the five year old
throwing up in the back seat (their travel clothes and my wrap
ended up in the aunt's washing machine & dryer during dinner -
we had planned to change them into a holiday outfit for the
dinner & photos with great-grandmother).
I've heard other people talking about trips they're taking as
if the shortest time it has ever taken them to get to *Grandma's
House* (or wherever) is how long they plan on it taking from
then on - never mind that that one time the weather was perfect,
traffic was light, they had a full tank of gas, and *nothing*
happened to cause delays. The next time they go, they'll still
allow the same amount of time for travel even if they need to
stop & get gas AND it's raining, too. Because "it's only a
twenty minute drive"!
[/quote]
Yes, agreed. But I think people should notice their own patterns
and recognize that they are always making others wait, then
adjust.
Growing up, my aunt, uncle and two cousins left us waiting every
single holiday. For hours sometimes, often we were just sitting
at the table waiting because they would call and say they left
but somehow never could get from their house to grandparents in
the time it would take any normal people to do so.
My cousin later did this to me; left me waiting for FOUR hours
past when she was expected and I asked what the hell she had
been doing. She said it just never dawned on her that anyone
actually cared where she was or what she was doing or what time
she arrived anywhere. That made me sad. She'd stopped to shop,
stopped for food, stopped for ice cream. She was really shocked
to learn that her parents had left us all sitting around like
that.
I also have a chronically late friend, but it's part of our
social contract. I just expect him to be late. I mean, he can
say "I am ready, please come pick me up now" and I'll still be
left sitting outside his house for 15 minutes waiting, minimum.
But it's expected and he's a dear otherwise, so I just don't get
upset about it anymore. He's rather proper, and didn't like it
very much when I explained that I always wondered what he could
be doing but eventually figured he must be on the toilet. 8)
#Post#: 19999--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: VorFemme Date: November 26, 2018, 4:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=831.msg19997#msg19997
date=1543269389]
I also have a chronically late friend, but it's part of our
social contract. I just expect him to be late. I mean, he can
say "I am ready, please come pick me up now" and I'll still be
left sitting outside his house for 15 minutes waiting, minimum.
But it's expected and he's a dear otherwise, so I just don't get
upset about it anymore. He's rather proper, and didn't like it
very much when I explained that I always wondered what he could
be doing but eventually figured he must be on the toilet. 8)
[/quote]
Well (raising one eyebrow al la Mr. Spock), that would be the
*logical* explanation why a proper person would be late but
hesitate to explain what happened to all & sundry, wouldn't it?
8)
#Post#: 20029--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: Hanna Date: November 26, 2018, 6:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=VorFemme link=topic=831.msg19999#msg19999
date=1543270351]
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=831.msg19997#msg19997
date=1543269389]
I also have a chronically late friend, but it's part of our
social contract. I just expect him to be late. I mean, he can
say "I am ready, please come pick me up now" and I'll still be
left sitting outside his house for 15 minutes waiting, minimum.
But it's expected and he's a dear otherwise, so I just don't get
upset about it anymore. He's rather proper, and didn't like it
very much when I explained that I always wondered what he could
be doing but eventually figured he must be on the toilet. 8)
[/quote]
Well (raising one eyebrow al la Mr. Spock), that would be the
*logical* explanation why a proper person would be late but
hesitate to explain what happened to all & sundry, wouldn't it?
8)
[/quote]
Lol, exactly! And I thought it might inspire him to be more
prompt at least when I’m picking him up.
#Post#: 20060--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: Lilac Date: November 26, 2018, 9:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=831.msg19806#msg19806
date=1543154511]
What time we would all arrive based on those instructions isn’t
really relevant, right? You have to be specific and clear about
the time with people who are always late, then plan on them
still being late. Because for whatever reason, they really
don’t care if they are holding up the entire show.
Also, as someone above mentioned, don’t depend on those types
for important contributions to the meal, especially not the
appetizers.
I don’t think I could start without my Mom or MIL though, and
in your case I would have had DD making the calls to get them
there on time, since she was the one on a tight schedule.
[/quote]
I agree with this.
The root of the problem is the flexible serving time. Pick a
menu you can reliably serve at a stated time -- even if that
means cooking the turkey the day before and re-heating portions,
etc., or getting up at 5 to put the bird in -- and start within
10 minutes of that time. Giving an hour range sounds to me more
like a drop-in or open-house arrangement than an actual seated
holiday meal. Which, actually, might be a solution if the
family includes a lot of unreliable or tardy members.
"Come by 12:30, we'll be eating at 1" leaves less guesswork for
both hosts and guess.
#Post#: 20061--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: Lilac Date: November 26, 2018, 9:08 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=831.msg19827#msg19827
date=1543177288]
Thanks, all. It was interesting to read how other's interpreted
the invitation. To answer a couple of questions:
-I gave a "come anytime after" time because I've had family and
friends show up way earlier than I wanted, so I've started
giving a time when I'll be ready for people to arrive. If I said
lunch was at 1, they'd be at my door at 11am with appetizers and
ready to visit.
-Serving between 1 and 2 meant that we would be aiming for the
food to be ready within that hour time frame and for the meal to
commence. With turkeys and large meals it is sometimes hard to
say we will be eating at 1 and the meal not actually be ready
till 1:30.
-It never dawned on my that any of them would plan to arrive at
the last minute, especially if bringing appetizers. Even if they
weren't and they thought the meal would be held for them till
2pm, why plan to arrive at 2 when that's the last possible time
the meal would be served? We normally have lots of socializing
prior to the meal.
[/quote]
If there is difficulty in timing the greater part of the meal,
you could have a starter course to get most people to the table
promptly -- soup, shrimp cocktail, a special salad -- while the
cooks finish up the rest the of courses. That way at least
people could count on when the meal will begin, even if the
actual serving and consuming take place in stages rather than
everything plopped on the table at once.
#Post#: 20063--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: Lilac Date: November 26, 2018, 9:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=831.msg19986#msg19986
date=1543266755]
[quote author=QueenFaninCA link=topic=831.msg19973#msg19973
date=1543263012]
[quote author=lakey link=topic=831.msg19873#msg19873
date=1543208170]
[quote]There was not a specific meal time. You can argue about
interpretation and meaning and what the guests should have known
or understood but the OP said she gave a time range, between 1
and 2. A range is not a specific meal time. [/quote]
When you are cooking and serving a roasted turkey, a sweet
potato casserole, stuffing, mashed potatoes, gravy, a vegetable
dish, along with cranberries, rolls, and dessert, it is almost
impossible to give a specific meal time when everything will be
ready and hot. Therefore you give a range. "We will be eating
between 1 and 2, depending on when the food is ready." You can't
say specifically, "We'll eat at 1:30," because there is a good
chance that everything won't be ready. You have to leave the
turkey in the oven until its internal temperature reaches a
certain temperature. Once everything is ready and hot, you have
everyone move to the dining room table. If you wait 20 minutes
for someone who is "on their way", then you will have wasted a
couple of days of work on a meal that is cold and unappetizing.
A professional chef might be able to give an exact serving time
for a meal like this. I can't, and I don't think most home cooks
can. Sometimes people who haven't prepared a meal like this for
a large number of guests have no idea the amount of planning,
work, and expense that goes into it. If guests are a little
confused by "We're serving lunch between 1 and 2,depending on
when food is ready", they should err on the side of
consideration for the host who is doing all of the work and
expense, not their own convenience. It's pretty obvious that the
range is because the host doesn't know exactly when the food
will be ready, not because you can show up as late as 2.
[/quote]
I'm not a professional chef but I do manage to serve my
Christmas goose with all the trimmings within two minutes of the
time I said dinner would be ready. It's not that hard, it just
requires some planning to make sure everything gets in the oven
or the pot at the right time. I have a big spreadsheet that has
the timeline to make sure I don't get to the point in the recipe
where it says "add chopped onion" and realize the onion isn't
chopped yet.
But to the OP, I thought it was clear that guests could arrive
any time after noon and the meal would be served at some point
between 1 and 2 with the exact time not known in advance (and
could be 1pm). I'd probably arrive around 12:10 and recommend to
someone wanting to minimize time there to arrive just before
1pm.
[/quote]
I too can usually get the meal contents we are making all
together at a very specific time. This year I was a little more
concerned because my DH would be frying 2 turkeys (have to get
one done and then put the other on) and I was also smoking a
stuffed pork loin and a duck. If you've ever smoked anything,
you know you have to go by temp and not time. Depending on
weather and a whole bunch of other factors, timing can vary by
20 min to an hour depending on what you are cooking. And then,
invariably, someone arrives with an unexpected fridge cold
casserole that needs to be heated, someone else wants to decant
a couple of bottles of wine right before dinner, someone else
wants a lesson in making gravy as they visit with me in the
kitchen, and someone else arrives with a dessert that requires
me to find a specific type of dish to be unmolded onto. (All
real examples from this year). So while all of my dishes may be
ready, dealing with everyone else's last minute needs can create
a delay.
[/quote]
OK, so it looks as if the hosts made a number of choices that
preclude a specific start time, and expected guests to adjust to
that. You could have cooked the turkeys the day before, had
fewer no other tricky meats, spurned offers of casseroles and
desserts, served wine of your choosing and set guests' aside for
another time, given a gravy lesson when others were not waiting
for their meal, etc.
To have so many variables factoring in -- and yet get irked when
guests themselves are variable -- seems a bit unfair. If timing
is essential, simplify the menu, ask guests not to bring food,
start serving at a stated time and give gravy lessons on a
different day.
Or, have a buffet / open house and add foods to the table as
they are ready, but without expecting guests to show up early
and then cool their heels until a sit-down meal takes place at
an unpredictable time. In my family we tend to do our
socializing after the dinner, so I'd be annoyed to rush around
and show up at 12:15 (missing the opportunity to watch parades,
etc in person or on TV, or just to enjoy a lazy holiday morn)
and then sit there for 90+ minutes waiting for something to
happen while the hosts were in the kitchen or out in the garage
with a frying device.
#Post#: 20086--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: lowspark Date: November 27, 2018, 8:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Hanna link=topic=831.msg19888#msg19888
date=1543236816]
I suspect if one these people who have trouble understanding the
concept of “the meal will begin between 1 and 2” were told “The
local bank is giving away a million dollars to each person
present some time between 1 and 2” they would get there before 1
without any confusion.
Chronically late people with no medical reason just think their
time is more valuable than everyone else’s.
[/quote]
This.
I always wonder about people who are consistently late to social
events. Are they also consistently late to work? To pick up
their kids? To doctors' appointments? I'm betting not. Because
when you *have* to be on time, you figure out how to do it.
I had a friend who used to have a job driving kids to school and
picking them up in the afternoon. She managed to do this every
day without being late. Her livelihood depended on it. And yet,
she was always late to social events. So it's not as if she
*couldn't* be on time. It was that she chose not to.
#Post#: 20087--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: lowspark Date: November 27, 2018, 9:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lilac link=topic=831.msg20063#msg20063
date=1543289096]
Or, have a buffet / open house and add foods to the table as
they are ready, but without expecting guests to show up early
and then cool their heels until a sit-down meal takes place at
an unpredictable time. In my family we tend to do our
socializing after the dinner, so I'd be annoyed to rush around
and show up at 12:15 (missing the opportunity to watch parades,
etc in person or on TV, or just to enjoy a lazy holiday morn)
and then sit there for 90+ minutes waiting for something to
happen while the hosts were in the kitchen or out in the garage
with a frying device.
[/quote]
Regarding the bolded above, I think it's a matter of
perspective. When I have a seated dinner, I set the arrival time
as approximately one hour before dinner will be served. My
guests aren't "cooling their heels", nor are they sitting around
"waiting for something to happen." They are enjoying a cocktail,
a light appetizer, and socializing with other guests and with
me.
This works better in my circle of friends because it allows for
people to be a few minutes late. If I call the gathering for 6
pm and we are going to sit down to eat right at 6, then if
someone is even five minutes late, they are in the uncomfortable
position of arriving to see everyone already seated at the
table.
Whereas in my situation, if someone is 15 minutes late, and
these things do happen, they just miss out on 15 minutes of the
cocktail hour which is not a big deal.
This is definitely a "know your audience" situation. Maybe your
group is used to socializing after and understands that an
invitation for 6 pm means dinner is served at 6 sharp. For my
group, that would seem odd.
#Post#: 20089--------------------------------------------------
Re: When would you arrive?
By: Hmmm Date: November 27, 2018, 10:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Lilac link=topic=831.msg20063#msg20063
date=1543289096]
[quote author=Hmmm link=topic=831.msg19986#msg19986
date=1543266755]
[quote author=QueenFaninCA link=topic=831.msg19973#msg19973
date=1543263012]
[quote author=lakey link=topic=831.msg19873#msg19873
date=1543208170]
[quote]There was not a specific meal time. You can argue about
interpretation and meaning and what the guests should have known
or understood but the OP said she gave a time range, between 1
and 2. A range is not a specific meal time. [/quote]
When you are cooking and serving a roasted turkey, a sweet
potato casserole, stuffing, mashed potatoes, gravy, a vegetable
dish, along with cranberries, rolls, and dessert, it is almost
impossible to give a specific meal time when everything will be
ready and hot. Therefore you give a range. "We will be eating
between 1 and 2, depending on when the food is ready." You can't
say specifically, "We'll eat at 1:30," because there is a good
chance that everything won't be ready. You have to leave the
turkey in the oven until its internal temperature reaches a
certain temperature. Once everything is ready and hot, you have
everyone move to the dining room table. If you wait 20 minutes
for someone who is "on their way", then you will have wasted a
couple of days of work on a meal that is cold and unappetizing.
A professional chef might be able to give an exact serving time
for a meal like this. I can't, and I don't think most home cooks
can. Sometimes people who haven't prepared a meal like this for
a large number of guests have no idea the amount of planning,
work, and expense that goes into it. If guests are a little
confused by "We're serving lunch between 1 and 2,depending on
when food is ready", they should err on the side of
consideration for the host who is doing all of the work and
expense, not their own convenience. It's pretty obvious that the
range is because the host doesn't know exactly when the food
will be ready, not because you can show up as late as 2.
[/quote]
I'm not a professional chef but I do manage to serve my
Christmas goose with all the trimmings within two minutes of the
time I said dinner would be ready. It's not that hard, it just
requires some planning to make sure everything gets in the oven
or the pot at the right time. I have a big spreadsheet that has
the timeline to make sure I don't get to the point in the recipe
where it says "add chopped onion" and realize the onion isn't
chopped yet.
But to the OP, I thought it was clear that guests could arrive
any time after noon and the meal would be served at some point
between 1 and 2 with the exact time not known in advance (and
could be 1pm). I'd probably arrive around 12:10 and recommend to
someone wanting to minimize time there to arrive just before
1pm.
[/quote]
I too can usually get the meal contents we are making all
together at a very specific time. This year I was a little more
concerned because my DH would be frying 2 turkeys (have to get
one done and then put the other on) and I was also smoking a
stuffed pork loin and a duck. If you've ever smoked anything,
you know you have to go by temp and not time. Depending on
weather and a whole bunch of other factors, timing can vary by
20 min to an hour depending on what you are cooking. And then,
invariably, someone arrives with an unexpected fridge cold
casserole that needs to be heated, someone else wants to decant
a couple of bottles of wine right before dinner, someone else
wants a lesson in making gravy as they visit with me in the
kitchen, and someone else arrives with a dessert that requires
me to find a specific type of dish to be unmolded onto. (All
real examples from this year). So while all of my dishes may be
ready, dealing with everyone else's last minute needs can create
a delay.
[/quote]
OK, so it looks as if the hosts made a number of choices that
preclude a specific start time, and expected guests to adjust to
that. You could have cooked the turkeys the day before, had
fewer no other tricky meats, spurned offers of casseroles and
desserts, served wine of your choosing and set guests' aside for
another time, given a gravy lesson when others were not waiting
for their meal, etc.
To have so many variables factoring in -- and yet get irked when
guests themselves are variable -- seems a bit unfair. If timing
is essential, simplify the menu, ask guests not to bring food,
start serving at a stated time and give gravy lessons on a
different day.
Or, have a buffet / open house and add foods to the table as
they are ready, but without expecting guests to show up early
and then cool their heels until a sit-down meal takes place at
an unpredictable time. In my family we tend to do our
socializing after the dinner, so I'd be annoyed to rush around
and show up at 12:15 (missing the opportunity to watch parades,
etc in person or on TV, or just to enjoy a lazy holiday morn)
and then sit there for 90+ minutes waiting for something to
happen while the hosts were in the kitchen or out in the garage
with a frying device.
[/quote]
First, I did not say I was irked by the lateness nor the
requests of my guests. I allow for these types of situations to
occur in my meal planning.
As I said, in my original post I have learned to deal with the
inlaws inability to arrive on time. I used to set a specific
time that the meal would be served, ask my inlaws and guest to
arrive anywhere between an hour to half hour prior to that
period and have everything sitting there (including my other
guests) waiting for them to arrive. And my other guests were
always polite and said "oh, no we can wait" when I'd suggest I
go ahead and serve.
I was not asking for how to resolve the issue or mitigate it in
the future. I was asking for input on how others interpreted the
invitation. Since 16 of the 17 invited guests interpreted it the
way I meant it, I was curious if others could enlighten me.
While I appreciate the constructive suggestions, believe me,
I've tried many of them. *
Second, I have learned to employ several methods to deal with
their lateness:
-Never plan to serve anything that can't sit for an hour without
being ruined
-Have a method to keep all meats warm and moist while
maintaining texture (we wrap the turkeys in butcher paper and
then keep in an ice chest... skin stays crisp). Yes, we offered
many options, but those were to accommodate the preferences of
the various guests.
-Even if my inlaws request to bring appetizers, I always have
appetizers out when the ontime guests arrive because I know they
will not be on time.
-Always coordinate my meal prep to have space in one of our
ovens to heat (or even cook) a brought casserole.
These are not people driving in from far away. The longest
either of them have is 20 minute drive.
While your family enjoys doing the majority of their socializing
after dinner, my side of the family likes to come, visit for an
hour or so, have the meal, visit a little more, have dessert and
then head out for their own homes or to other locations. But DH
and I always plan to host for at least 4 to 6 hours post meal
for those who choose to stay. And we will often have additional
guests join us post meal for dessert or games in the evening.
*Classic story
I called MIL 2 weeks before Easter and asked if they would be ok
with going to an early church service that they could be at our
house by 11:30am. I said we would hold off on the Easter Egg
hunt till after service (they always loved hiding things for the
kids) and then do brunch at noon because my sister and her
family wanted to leave by 2 since they had a 6 hour drive home.
She said of course, they always either do the 8am service and
that would be perfect. Saturday before Easter, she calls and
asks what she can bring. I say don't bring anything since you'll
be coming directly from church.
Sunday, we get up early, get everything prepared, go to 9:30
service, home a little before 11. I keep the kids (my 2 and my
nephew) occupied in the house while DH, and other family members
hide eggs. By Noon, MIL and BIL have not arrived. We try to call
their cell but get no answer, but back then they didn't always
keep it on. We go ahead with the Easter Egg hunt. All appetizers
have been eaten by now. Everyone is starting to worry about
them, DH and I are discussing if we should just go ahead and
serve and finally BIL gets a call at 1 saying they are on their
way and they arrive at 1:30. The reason for being late? SIL who
was still living at home didn't get dressed in time for the 8am
service so they delayed to the 9:30. The service was packed and
it took them forever to get out of the parking lot. Though I had
told MIL not to bring anything, she decided to make a deviled
eggs and a potato salad. She didn't think the eggs would stay
fresh in an ice chest so so after service had them drive an
extra 40 min to go pick up the items that I had said I didn't
need.
*****************************************************
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