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#Post#: 17451--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: lakey
Date: October 28, 2018, 5:25 pm
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Anyway, as far as I know, women are more likely to be sexually
assaulted than men. So if a man holds a door to a restroom open
for a woman, she may be wondering if he is going to follow her
in there. A man, less worried about sexual assault or peeping
Toms, will hold the restroom door open, and not even realize
that it could make the woman nervous.
#Post#: 17462--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: guest657
Date: October 28, 2018, 8:46 pm
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--- Quote from: lakey link ---
>
> [quote]Oh, by the way, cabbageweevil. Men who crowd, grope,
flash, leer at, catcall, or otherwise behave inappropriately
toward women (up to and including assault) don't do it because
they are just intensely attracted and can't control themselves.
>
> They do it because they have a sick and distorted concept of
women, and believe their momentary "jollies" or desire for
attention is more important than treating another human being
with respect.
>
> That's not normal, healthy attraction. It's perverse and
dehumanizing. To conflate these actions with attraction is not
just incorrect, it perpetuates the idea that women cause their
own harrassment, assaults or rapes by being "too pretty", or by
the way they dress.
--- End Quote ---
I didn't get the impression that cabbageweevil said or implied
any of this.
[/quote]
I don't think cabbageweevil intended to excuse or minimize bad
behavior, not at all. But it's one of those insidious habits of
thought that is ingrained in many parts of our culture, and I
think he fell into it without realizing the implications. That's
why I brought it up. Because the implications matter, and I
believe CB is a well-intentioned person who wouldn't want to
perpetuate that sort of thing if he realized it.
He said, "unfortunately a minority of men can, in their
attracted-ess to women, go beyond the bounds of proper conduct.
The circumstances described by the OP could be viewed by a woman
as, possibly, an excessive and inappropriate degree of interest
on a man's part, in women's restroom / toilet / whatever,
activities; or even an attempt at sexual predation. "
My point is that "going beyond the bounds of proper conduct" has
nothing to do with "attractedness". That's a myth that has
enabled predators to gain sympathy and operate with impunity for
far too long.
Creepers don't creep because they just like women too much. It's
not a problem with degree or intensity. It's a whole different
agenda.
The desires or interest that would lead a man to inappropriate
behavior should not be made part and parcel with normal
relationships between men and women. It does a disservice to men
and women -- to society as a whole.
#Post#: 17464--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: Venus193
Date: October 28, 2018, 9:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
For those who don't know, I use a cane because my left knee is
unstable. People who don't know me may think I'm weaker than I
am. I'm also only five feet tall.
#Post#: 17465--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: browzer11
Date: October 28, 2018, 10:33 pm
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Venus ... What's your point?
#Post#: 17471--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: cabbageweevil
Date: October 29, 2018, 4:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Anon4Now link ---
>
> [quote author=lakey link=topic=770.msg17448#msg17448
date=1540764793]
> [quote]Oh, by the way, cabbageweevil. Men who crowd, grope,
flash, leer at, catcall, or otherwise behave inappropriately
toward women (up to and including assault) don't do it because
they are just intensely attracted and can't control themselves.
>
> They do it because they have a sick and distorted concept of
women, and believe their momentary "jollies" or desire for
attention is more important than treating another human being
with respect.
>
> That's not normal, healthy attraction. It's perverse and
dehumanizing. To conflate these actions with attraction is not
just incorrect, it perpetuates the idea that women cause their
own harrassment, assaults or rapes by being "too pretty", or by
the way they dress.
--- End Quote ---
I didn't get the impression that cabbageweevil said or implied
any of this.
[/quote]
I don't think cabbageweevil intended to excuse or minimize bad
behavior, not at all. But it's one of those insidious habits of
thought that is ingrained in many parts of our culture, and I
think he fell into it without realizing the implications. That's
why I brought it up. Because the implications matter, and I
believe CB is a well-intentioned person who wouldn't want to
perpetuate that sort of thing if he realized it.
He said, "unfortunately a minority of men can, in their
attracted-ess to women, go beyond the bounds of proper conduct.
The circumstances described by the OP could be viewed by a woman
as, possibly, an excessive and inappropriate degree of interest
on a man's part, in women's restroom / toilet / whatever,
activities; or even an attempt at sexual predation. "
My point is that "going beyond the bounds of proper conduct" has
nothing to do with "attractedness". That's a myth that has
enabled predators to gain sympathy and operate with impunity for
far too long.
Creepers don't creep because they just like women too much. It's
not a problem with degree or intensity. It's a whole different
agenda.
The desires or interest that would lead a man to inappropriate
behavior should not be made part and parcel with normal
relationships between men and women. It does a disservice to men
and women -- to society as a whole.
[/quote]
I admit, I'm a not particularly consciousness-raised male;
should probably have refrained from posting. Was -- without
taking thought for what I wrote -- seeming to verge on lumping
together: normal attraction, and outright sick impulses.
Apologies for any hurt unintentionally dealt-out by me.
#Post#: 17474--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: Venus193
Date: October 29, 2018, 7:47 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: browzer11 link ---
>
> Venus ... What's your point?
>
--- End Quote ---
My point is that despite not looking like a stupid, naive idiot
the cane makes me look weaker and like an easy victim.
#Post#: 17500--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: October 29, 2018, 10:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Jem link ---
>
> For the people saying this is creepy...does gender matter? If
yes, why?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, gender matters, because men are more likely to be a danger
to women than any other combinations.
It is still weird if everybody's the same sex, but the
creepy/danger vibe is worse when a man is standing inside the
bathroom holding the door for a woman to enter the bathroom with
him.
#Post#: 17501--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: October 29, 2018, 10:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: cabbageweevil link ---
>
> If speculation by a male is allowable: women as a gender,
have to tread more carefully in life's situations, than their
male counterparts -- unfortunately a minority of men can, in
their attracted-ess to women, go beyond the bounds of proper
conduct. The circumstances described by the OP could be viewed
by a woman as, possibly, an excessive and inappropriate degree
of interest on a man's part, in women's restroom / toilet /
whatever, activities; or even an attempt at sexual predation.
Statistically the former is fairly unlikely, and the latter very
unlikely -- in all probability, the man's thinking and
intentions were totally innocent: he just didn't think matters
through, via trying to see them from a woman's point of view --
but sadly, women need to reckon with the possibility of male
attention of the wrong kind.
>
> (Rose Red has just said basically the same thing, a good deal
more succinctly than me !)
>
--- End Quote ---
Do remember that in a great many situations, it's not about how
attracted they are to women; it's about how much power they
want, and they see women as an easy target.
Rape and sexual assault are not about sexual attraction; they
are about power.
And it doesn't have to be rape to be about power; intimidation
is about power.
So yes, guys who are attracted to a women can be creepy. But
that's not the only thing going on here, and those guys are not
dangerous. The power-seeking guys will use that paradigm to get
what they want.
#Post#: 17502--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: October 29, 2018, 10:28 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: lakey link ---
>
> Anyway, as far as I know, women are more likely to be sexually
assaulted than men. So if a man holds a door to a restroom open
for a woman, she may be wondering if he is going to follow her
in there. A man, less worried about sexual assault or peeping
Toms, will hold the restroom door open, and not even realize
that it could make the woman nervous.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes! Even our own cabbageweevil seems to not really have the
power dynamics of predatory men on his mind--it wasn't his first
thought. Because he's not predatory, and so it just doesn't
occur to him.
#Post#: 17503--------------------------------------------------
Re: Polite or Creepy?
DIR By: TootsNYC
Date: October 29, 2018, 10:30 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Venus193 link ---
>
> [quote author=browzer11 link=topic=770.msg17465#msg17465
date=1540784007]
> Venus ... What's your point?
>
--- End Quote ---
My point is that despite not looking like a stupid, naive idiot
the cane makes me look weaker and like an easy victim.
[/quote]
And adds to a general feeling of vulnerability.
But in this situation, it may also have added to a greater
feeling of solicitousness toward you on the part of the guy. He
may have been thinking, "She's not as steady on her feet as an
able-bodied person, like me, and she's shorter than me, so she
doesn't have as much leverage with a door. I'll hold the door
open for her!"
And not really concentrated on the fact that this means he
was inside the room with you.
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