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#Post#: 16283--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: October 16, 2018, 11:42 am
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--- Quote from: Thrabalen link ---
>
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=737.msg16234#msg16234
date=1539654410]
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16220#msg16220
date=1539642256]
> The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to
humans. That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is
the root of the word woman. Language is frequently used to
dehumanize, infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls",
"ladies" and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a
female is dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a
female, but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
> An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
>
> That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
>
> Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
"females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
this obviously isn't as applicable!
>
--- End Quote ---
What????
Your idea of a woman who acts like a lady is very different than
mine. If I refer to someone as being lady-like, they are
confident, poised, intelligent, and are considerate to everyone,
no matter their gender.
[/quote]
I am referring to the typical men's idea of a lady (refined and
gentile, doesn't raise their voice, isn't disagreeable.) The
word means different things to different people, as evidenced
from this thread. But this is language used to reduce women,
crafted by people out to do so.
[/quote]
That's a pretty broad stroke there. I can assure you that my
husband is a typical man as are most of the men in my family.
They would be stunned to find a woman who doesn't occasionally
raise her voice or disagrees on a regular basis. And yes, they
would still use the term lady to refer to me and other women
they have no interest in demeaning or reducing woman. The ladies
in my family (as are most of the women of my acquaintance) are
treated with respect and as equals.
#Post#: 16479--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Elisabunny
Date: October 17, 2018, 9:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16237#msg16237
date=1539656548]
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=737.msg16234#msg16234
date=1539654410]
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16220#msg16220
date=1539642256]
> The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to
humans. That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is
the root of the word woman. Language is frequently used to
dehumanize, infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls",
"ladies" and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a
female is dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a
female, but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
> An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
>
> That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
>
> Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
"females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
this obviously isn't as applicable!
>
--- End Quote ---
What????
Your idea of a woman who acts like a lady is very different than
mine. If I refer to someone as being lady-like, they are
confident, poised, intelligent, and are considerate to everyone,
no matter their gender.
[/quote]
I am referring to the typical men's idea of a lady (refined and
gentile, doesn't raise their voice, isn't disagreeable.) The
word means different things to different people, as evidenced
from this thread. But this is language used to reduce women,
crafted by people out to do so.
[/quote]
That's a pretty broad stroke there. I can assure you that my
husband is a typical man as are most of the men in my family.
They would be stunned to find a woman who doesn't occasionally
raise her voice or disagrees on a regular basis. And yes, they
would still use the term lady to refer to me and other women
they have no interest in demeaning or reducing woman. The ladies
in my family (as are most of the women of my acquaintance) are
treated with respect and as equals.
[/quote]
Most of the men I know use "lady" and "ladies" as terms of
respect.
#Post#: 16481--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Aleko
Date: October 18, 2018, 1:42 am
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In the UK 'lady' and 'ladies' tends to be used in an
ostensibly-respectful-but-actually-putting-women-firmly-in-their-place
way. As in:
'The ladies, God bless 'em!' (= 'Whatever would we do without
the feeble-minded but decorative little dears?')
'Four pints of bitter and a white wine for the lady.' (= 'Just
sip that quietly, darlin', while the men talk.')
'Uncle Gerry was always a great one for the ladies' (= 'nudge
nudge, wink wink')
'After you, young lady!' to a woman obviously well past forty:
(= 'See how gallant I am, pretending you aren't twenty years
past your sell-by date.')
I don't think I ever hear 'lady' used as compliment to a woman's
gracious manners and behaviour, as at least some Americans seem
to use it. Rather the opposite: 'Lady Muck' is an old-fashioned
but still-live term for a snooty woman. Though we do use 'He's a
real gent' for a man who's generous and honest.
#Post#: 17479--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Winterlight
Date: October 29, 2018, 7:56 am
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I think it should either be "ladies and gentlemen" or "women and
men", for balance. For the music issue, it should be by voice.
#Post#: 17481--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Venus193
Date: October 29, 2018, 8:06 am
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Especially when counter-tenors are involved:
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxVZ2_bj4Ws
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