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#Post#: 16226--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: caroled
Date: October 15, 2018, 7:49 pm
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--- Quote from: Mary Sunshine Rain link ---
>
> [quote author=TootsNYC link=topic=737.msg16069#msg16069
date=1539472826]
>
> Last week we started a new song in choir at my church, and it
begins with the female voices.
>
> The label above the text didn't say "women"--which is what it
normally says. It said "ladies."
>
> However, when the song switched registered, it said "men."
Not "gentlemen"; men.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
The best way to address a choir is by voice part. Our voices
are our instruments and they have names--Soprano, Alto, Tenor,
and Bass. It's no different than an orchestra that has flutes
and oboes.
It's also not universal that all women sing the higher voiced
parts and the men that lower voiced parts.
There is no reason at all to refer to singers by gender.
[/quote]
I agree with this... In my younger years I had a fairly good
range from soprano, hitting a high C 2 octaves above middle C
down to a high bass. It wasn't unusual for our choir director to
have me sing tenor on some songs as we were fairly thin of
members who could sing the "male parts". If needed I brought the
bass up an octave if it was too low for me, but was still a
different part from the alto or tenor.
#Post#: 16230--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Hanna
Date: October 15, 2018, 8:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Thrabalen link ---
>
> Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Your post described all of the words and meanings we take from
them really well.
But when I hear the term “lady” I tend to think first of the
English title, and next of someone who carries themselves with
an air of dignity. I was never taught that being a lady meant
submitting to anyone else, in fact I always believed they got to
tell others how to behave.
#Post#: 16234--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: October 15, 2018, 8:46 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Thrabalen link ---
>
> The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to
humans. That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is
the root of the word woman. Language is frequently used to
dehumanize, infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls",
"ladies" and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a
female is dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a
female, but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
> An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
>
> That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
>
> Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
"females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
this obviously isn't as applicable!
>
--- End Quote ---
What????
Your idea of a woman who acts like a lady is very different than
mine. If I refer to someone as being lady-like, they are
confident, poised, intelligent, and are considerate to everyone,
no matter their gender.
#Post#: 16236--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Dazi
Date: October 15, 2018, 9:10 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
My peeve with this is not with the use of ladies and men as
dismissive or derogatory, but the fact that on sheet music it
should be listed by VOICE.
Soprano, alto, tenor, and bass.
There are some men who are altos, especially younger
teens/children. Most prepubescent teens will be soprano or alto
regardless of biological sex. Some women are tenors.
#Post#: 16237--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Thrabalen
Date: October 15, 2018, 9:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16220#msg16220
date=1539642256]
> The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to
humans. That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is
the root of the word woman. Language is frequently used to
dehumanize, infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls",
"ladies" and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a
female is dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a
female, but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
> An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
>
> That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
>
> Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
"females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
this obviously isn't as applicable!
>
--- End Quote ---
What????
Your idea of a woman who acts like a lady is very different than
mine. If I refer to someone as being lady-like, they are
confident, poised, intelligent, and are considerate to everyone,
no matter their gender.
[/quote]
I am referring to the typical men's idea of a lady (refined and
gentile, doesn't raise their voice, isn't disagreeable.) The
word means different things to different people, as evidenced
from this thread. But this is language used to reduce women,
crafted by people out to do so.
#Post#: 16238--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Hanna
Date: October 15, 2018, 9:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Thrabalen link ---
>
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=737.msg16234#msg16234
date=1539654410]
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16220#msg16220
date=1539642256]
> The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to
humans. That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is
the root of the word woman. Language is frequently used to
dehumanize, infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls",
"ladies" and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a
female is dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a
female, but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
> An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
>
> That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
>
> Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
"females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
this obviously isn't as applicable!
>
--- End Quote ---
What????
Your idea of a woman who acts like a lady is very different than
mine. If I refer to someone as being lady-like, they are
confident, poised, intelligent, and are considerate to everyone,
no matter their gender.
[/quote]
I am referring to the typical men's idea of a lady (refined and
gentile, doesn't raise their voice, isn't disagreeable.) The
word means different things to different people, as evidenced
from this thread. But this is language used to reduce women,
crafted by people out to do so.
[/quote]
It seems like they are doing it wrong if not all of us are
getting it.
#Post#: 16240--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Thrabalen
Date: October 16, 2018, 12:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hanna link ---
>
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16237#msg16237
date=1539656548]
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=737.msg16234#msg16234
date=1539654410]
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16220#msg16220
date=1539642256]
> The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to
humans. That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is
the root of the word woman. Language is frequently used to
dehumanize, infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls",
"ladies" and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a
female is dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a
female, but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
> An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
>
> That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
>
> Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
"females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
this obviously isn't as applicable!
>
--- End Quote ---
What????
Your idea of a woman who acts like a lady is very different than
mine. If I refer to someone as being lady-like, they are
confident, poised, intelligent, and are considerate to everyone,
no matter their gender.
[/quote]
I am referring to the typical men's idea of a lady (refined and
gentile, doesn't raise their voice, isn't disagreeable.) The
word means different things to different people, as evidenced
from this thread. But this is language used to reduce women,
crafted by people out to do so.
[/quote]
It seems like they are doing it wrong if not all of us are
getting it.
[/quote]
Words often have multiple meanings, and context is always
important. Suppose I said you seemed mad... would I be saying
you seemed angry or insane?
In any event, the point I have been trying to make is that the
most common words for a group of men retain the word Man (men,
gentlemen), whereas the most common words for women do not. It's
the reason I will not refer to a woman as anything but a woman,
unless she asks me to. One's right to agency, to choosing who
they are, is the overall end, and who am I to supersede that?
#Post#: 16243--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Aleko
Date: October 16, 2018, 4:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Words often have multiple meanings, and context is always
important.
--- End Quote ---
Indeed. And just because I am an etymology geek, here are the
original meanings of some of the words that have been contested
here:
Wife: Old English wif (cognate with German Weib), meaning 'adult
female'. The sense survives in compounds such as fishwife (woman
who processes or sells fish for a living), housewife (woman who
manages a house) and midwife. (The mid- element in this one
means 'with' - as the German word mit does - so a midwife is
literally someone who stays with a woman during childbirth. So
etymologically it's not odd to call a man a midwife, if that's
his vocation.)
Man: Also Old English, (cognate with German Mann), primary
meaning 'human being' as in 'mankind', but (because medieval
Europeans were wildly sexist and assumed the male to be the norm
from which the female was a deplorable-but-necessary divergence)
quickly taken to mean specifically 'adult male'. Which led to
the creation of the word -
Woman: Old English wif-man, literally 'adult-female person'.
Lady: Old English hlæfdige, literally 'loaf-kneader'. In
Anglo-Saxon society the female head of the household had real
status. If you had the keys of the stores, and knew how to make
enough good wholesome bread with the flour you kept there to
feed your family, servants and guests, you were a person to be
reckoned with and looked up to. Your husband, whose obligation
to the house was not to work in it but to protect it, its
inhabitants and its contents, was the hlæfweard, literally
'loaf-guard', now spelt and pronounced 'lord'!
Gentleman: A much more recent word (by at least 500 years) than
all the above, and much snobbier. The word gentle in the Middle
Ages meant 'well-born' (that is, belonging to a gens or clan
that people had heard of), and it got its present meaning from
the idea that only aristocrats were well-mannered, generous,
kind and pleasant, whereas peasants were rough, harsh and rude.
--- Quote ---
> can you go into a room with all men and address them as Gals
or Ladies or some such?
--- End Quote ---
Well, theoretically you could address a convention of bakers as
'Ladies'. . . .
#Post#: 16256--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: RubyCat
Date: October 16, 2018, 8:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Really interesting background. I love etymology.
#Post#: 16273--------------------------------------------------
Re: ladies and men
DIR By: Hanna
Date: October 16, 2018, 10:57 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Thrabalen link ---
>
> [quote author=Hmmm link=topic=737.msg16234#msg16234
date=1539654410]
> [quote author=Thrabalen link=topic=737.msg16220#msg16220
date=1539642256]
> The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to
humans. That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is
the root of the word woman. Language is frequently used to
dehumanize, infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls",
"ladies" and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a
female is dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a
female, but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
they are submissive).
>
> An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
>
> That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
>
> Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
"females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
this obviously isn't as applicable!
>
--- End Quote ---
What????
Your idea of a woman who acts like a lady is very different than
mine. If I refer to someone as being lady-like, they are
confident, poised, intelligent, and are considerate to everyone,
no matter their gender.
[/quote]
I am referring to the [glow=red,2,300]typical men's[/glow] idea
of a lady (refined and gentile, doesn't raise their voice, isn't
disagreeable.) The word means different things to different
people, as evidenced from this thread. But this is language used
to reduce women, crafted by people out to do so.
[/quote]
I do not believe the men I spend my time with have this idea you
are describing nor do I experience them attempting to control or
shame me into behaving a certain way with their language.
But that is an interesting use of the word "typical" highlighted
above. I think it's actually a good illustration of what you
describe being done to women with language. I hear "typical
man" frequently used in an attempt to demean and degrade men. It
really bothers me personally, because I like men and don't think
they deserve to be treated that way any more than women do.
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