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       #Post#: 16142--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Hanna
       Date: October 14, 2018, 9:13 pm
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       I agree with the post upthread that it’s just not technically
       accurate to use gender in place of voice.
       I suspect it’s just an error or written by someone who does not
       write well, rather than someone sending a coded message. A man
       (or someone that feels protective of men) could also take
       offense that they used “ladies” but didn’t use the corollary
       “gentlemen”. Or at the implication that one signing with a
       higher voice is always a female.
       #Post#: 16146--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Star Wars Fan
       Date: October 15, 2018, 3:31 am
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       --- Quote from: browzer11 link ---
       >
       > I think you're getting all worked up over a non-issue.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I totally agree with you. I really think this is making a
       mountain out of a mole hill.
       Ed.
       #Post#: 16155--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Irked Purist
       Date: October 15, 2018, 8:52 am
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       IMO this is quite a little 'mountain' to have made. TootsNYC
       made a small correction to her copy of the song, and started a
       discussion here; that doesn't register as 'all worked up'.
       It would irritate me too... partly because I'm a fairly low
       alto. Voice type nomenclature is the most correct and also the
       easiest to understand.
       Incidentally, I bloody loathe 'you guys' and will accept it as
       a non-gendered term once it becomes acceptable in general
       society to refer to a mixed group as 'girls' or 'ladies'. Which
       is vanishingly rare, as it's only ever acceptable in one
       direction.
       #Post#: 16164--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Hmmm
       Date: October 15, 2018, 10:49 am
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       I'm not bothered by being referred to as a Lady. To me it shows
       respect. Sure, mom's can throw out "act like a lady" but they
       also throw out "act like a gentleman' too.
       But I always use the nouns together so it would be more of an
       annoyance because they don't fit together.
       It's Ladies & Gentlemen, boys & girls, men & women, guys and
       gals.
       I'd never mix guys and girls, or gentlemen & women. It just
       sounds off to me.
       #Post#: 16172--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Hanna
       Date: October 15, 2018, 11:43 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Star Wars Fan link ---
       >
       > [quote author=browzer11 link=topic=737.msg16071#msg16071
       date=1539473107]
       > I think you're getting all worked up over a non-issue.
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       I totally agree with you. I really think this is making a
       mountain out of a mole hill.
       Ed.
       [/quote]
       On language:  Isn't this a funny phrase? I use it sometimes, too
       but in reality moles can be really destructive to a lawn and
       mountains are awesome.
       I'd rather have mountains than molehills.
       #Post#: 16203--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: GardenGal
       Date: October 15, 2018, 3:00 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote from: Thitpualso link ---
       >
       > [quote author=GardenGal link=topic=737.msg16123#msg16123
       date=1539542037]
       > I totally get your irritation, TootsNYC.  It sounds
       patronizing to me.
       >
       > My personal "ugh" moment is when the waiter/waitress says to
       our table of only women, "What are you guys having?"
       >
       --- End Quote ---
       ‘Guys’ in reference to women doesn’t bother me.  Back in the
       late 1960s I attended a women’s college and it was standard to
       go into a student lounge and greet the assembled group with, ‘Hi
       guys!  What’s on TV tonight?’
       We all did it and nobody thought anything off about it.
       [/quote]
       Yes, I know it doesn't bother a lot of people, but can you go
       into a room with all men and address them as Gals or Ladies or
       some such?
       #Post#: 16207--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Celestia
       Date: October 15, 2018, 3:16 pm
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       I'm going to try to jump on the train I saw online of bringing
       back "cool cats" for the new 20s.
       "Hey cool cats, how's it hanging?"
       #Post#: 16214--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Aleko
       Date: October 15, 2018, 4:19 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       --- Quote ---
       > Actually, I think the Book of Common Prayer DOES say "husband'
       --- End Quote ---
       Revised versions mostly do; but the 1662 original says, "I
       pronounce that they be man and wife together", for the good
       17th-century reasons I gave earlier.
       #Post#: 16215--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: bopper
       Date: October 15, 2018, 4:26 pm
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       I just was telling a man (who english is not his first language)
       that he should not use "girls" when referring to female
       coworkers...I was happy enough with ladies as at least that
       indicates adult women
       #Post#: 16220--------------------------------------------------
       Re: ladies and men
   DIR By: Thrabalen
       Date: October 15, 2018, 5:24 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       The root of the issue is language and how it pertains to humans.
       That is, the root of the word man is, well, Man. As is the root
       of the word woman. Language is frequently used to dehumanize,
       infantilize, or to dominate, and "females", "girls", "ladies"
       and the like are examples of this. Calling a woman a female is
       dehumanizing. A cat can be a female, a horse can be a female,
       but neither can be a woman. Calling a woman a girl is
       infantilizing. A girl is an immature woman, not possessing life
       experience enough to be trusted to make her own decisions.
       Calling a woman a "lady" is dominating. A lady is a woman who
       acts in a specific way, deferential and polite to men (thus,
       they are submissive).
       An adult human female is a *woman*. They are of Man. They are
       free to make their own decisions, and they are capable of being
       rational, thinking people. They have value beyond their gender.
       That is *not* to say that all people using the words this way
       are doing this, merely they are repeating learned behavior.
       Edited to add: When there is parity in terminology (i.e.,
       "females and males", "girls and boys", "ladies and gentlemen"),
       this obviously isn't as applicable!
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