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#Post#: 14753--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: LadyRexall
Date: September 28, 2018, 2:11 pm
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She didn’t “pull” anything on you. If you don’t like that style
of hosting or that style of party, you can decline. What you
cannot do is expect someone to host the exact same way you do!
#Post#: 14817--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: cabbageweevil
Date: September 29, 2018, 9:12 am
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Thanks to everyone, for thoughts and comments. It's as I'd
rather been expecting: general consensus seems to be that Ivan
and I have been -- within our heads -- not behaving well over
this issue; and have been "keeping scores" over mutual /
reciprocal hospitality, in a rather petty and ungracious way; a
couple of posters have written of "bean-counting". This was my
first motive for my OP -- to try and check whether Ekaterin was,
etiquette-wise, in the clear over this situation (letter versus
spirit of law, maybe a bit "something else"?). Verdict strongly
delivered, is that she is; for which thanks, and "taken on
board".
I'd suspected from the first, that we were on shaky ground; the
more so, in that it's a "family" situation, where a higher
degree of tolerance of peoples' foibles and less insistence on
pound-of-flesh stuff, is often more recommended / looked for,
than elsewhere. Miles and Ekaterin's ungenerosity is far from
extreme: they have indeed in various ways and at various times
been the hosts for us without requiring money from us.
--- Quote from: Aleko link ---
>
> - However, it is legit to invite people to a restaurant to
celebrate a third party and pay for their own dinners (provided
you spell that out on the invitation, of course, so they don't
get a nasty surprise at the end of the evening), and this is
what OP's brother and SIL are doing. I don't think they are in
the wrong at all.
>
--- End Quote ---
Thanks -- interesting to hear the third-party component, re
rules of etiquette: I think Ivan and I hadn't hitherto known of
this convention.
Ivan and I had not entertained any notion of -- as some posters
have suggested as possible courses of action -- paying for our
meal, but giving no present to the birthday girl (there is
indeed, a present for her from us); or "nickel-and-diming re
what eaten by us at the meal" -- frankly, we are both too much
gluttons for that to be a realistic strategy on our part. We
had figured all along, "murmur and grumble but keep it to
ourselves / ask the BM&B folk (to whose existence our brother
and family are oblivious) for views; but in actions even if not
in private thoughts-and-words, 'not to render evil for evil * '
."
As some posters have speculated: Ivan and Ekaterin relate with
each other somewhat uneasily (though in public they act, for
sure, as though they find each other excellent company -- a
knack which Ivan has: he's a life-and-soul-of-the-party type,
unlike me, who am in "meatspace" a dull stick and poor
conversationalist). Ivan has a mercurial temperament and is
given to strong likes and dislikes; and harbours highly
egalitarian social and political sentiments. It galls him that
-- in his perception -- while Miles and Ekaterin are a lot
better-off financially and materially, than him and myself; they
tend a bit toward being grasping rather than generous (Miles,
from being often off in a world of his own; Ekaterin, more
fundamentally, plus there are other aspects in which she rubs
Ivan up the wrong way). Ivan sees himself as being a highly
generous person; with which self-assessment, I mostly agree.
It would seem clear enough that Ivan's tendency to dislike
Ekaterin, as above, does something to colour his attitude re our
"hospitality wars". In all this, I'm rather "Mr.
Facing-Both-Ways": I reckon that -- even "allowing for..." --
Ivan has a point here; but the personal animus makes him
something less than totally fair. I could be accused of
spinelessness; but am apt to think along lines of, "eh, people
are weird in assorted ways, and flawed and imperfect -- as far
as possible, let it go unless their behaviour is totally hideous
-- I get no kick from quarrelling".
(Re my post of yesterday -- per latest info as of today, the
Elena / Alex romance is still on; but it's a tempestuous one.)
* Biblical quotation: "evil" not truly meant, in this
essentially very small-time and humdrum drama.
#Post#: 14826--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Aleko
Date: September 29, 2018, 10:20 am
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--- Quote ---
> [quote]- However, it is legit to invite people to a restaurant
to celebrate a third party and pay for their own dinners
(provided you spell that out on the invitation, of course, so
they don't get a nasty surprise at the end of the evening), and
this is what OP's brother and SIL are doing. I don't think they
are in the wrong at all.
--- End Quote ---
Thanks -- interesting to hear the third-party component, re
rules of etiquette: I think Ivan and I hadn't hitherto known of
this convention.[/quote]
Actually I suspect that you knew it instinctively, you just
hadn't codified it in your heads. If someone in a group of
friends were to say to the rest of the group, 'Why don't we all
go to X restaurant on the 28th to celebrate Jack's
birthday/graduation/Nobel prize? We'll all pay our own way', you
surely would accept that as a perfectly proper suggestion;
whereas for Jack to say to his friends 'Why don't we all go to X
restaurant on the 28th to celebrate my birthday/graduation/Nobel
prize? You'll each pay for your own dinners' is just wrong.
#Post#: 14827--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: September 29, 2018, 10:26 am
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OP, does your brother and SIL host you and your other brother at
their homes at other times?
#Post#: 14832--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: lakey
Date: September 29, 2018, 11:52 am
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I don't think that this is really about "keeping score", whether
an 18th birthday is a major life event, or even what the two
brothers did for their party. I think that this is about the
basic etiquette of hosting a party. If I host a party, birthday
or not, it is my responsibility as the host, to supply the
refreshments. That's what you do when you throw a party. It
doesn't matter whether it is at home or at a restaurant.
If you can't afford to cover the cost of a restaurant meal for
your guests, then have the party at home. They're not your
guests if you make them pay for their own meal. Even if the
brothers hadn't thrown a barbecue where they provided
everything, what the birthday family is doing is an etiquette
issue.
I also think that the more important issue is the relationship.
Is this etiquette problem more important than maintaining a good
relationship with your family? Personally, I'd attend the
restaurant party and enjoy the company, and move on. I've had a
couple of coworkers and acquaintances who were serious
cheapskates, who took whatever they could get, and almost never
reciprocated. If they pulled something like this, I wouldn't
attend. However, if people are close to you and you like being
with them, you put up with their flaws. This seems to be the
direction OP is taking. As another commenter said, it may be
that SIL or the brother reciprocate in other ways or at other
times. I wouldn't judge this only by the two birthday parties,
or one etiquette breach. I'd look at the whole relationship.
Sometimes it's better to not make to big a deal out of
everything. If you look at what some people deal with from
family members, this is pretty minor.
#Post#: 14944--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Aleko
Date: October 1, 2018, 7:02 am
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--- Quote ---
> If I host a party, birthday or not, it is my responsibility as
the host, to supply the refreshments. That's what you do when
you throw a party. It doesn't matter whether it is at home or at
a restaurant.
>
--- End Quote ---
Sure. But, lakey, the critical word here is 'if'. And there is
no indication that Miles and Ekaterin are claiming to be hosting
a party. What they are doing is organising a get-together in
honour of a family member. It is perfectly legit for one member
of a family or group of friends to do that, on the basis that
everyone who comes will chip in. If so, what you have there
isn't a host and guests, but for want of better words the
organiser, the honoree and the participants.
Let's take an example. I have two brothers, both married (as am
I), and a widowered father. Suppose my father lives with me and
DH (in RL he doesn't, but he may well do if and when he can no
longer cope alone). One of my brothers has a birthday and hosts
a family party in his home to celebrate. Fine. Three months
later, I say to my brothers, 'Hey guys, you know Dad will be 90
next month. What say we take him out to a nice restaurant to
celebrate his birthday, splitting our costs?' Do you consider
this would be an etiquette breach? I wouldn't. (Sure, it would
be wrong to suggest they splash out on a restaurant meal to
celebrate me*, but I'm not doing that, any more than Miles and
Ekaterin were.)
It may be relevant here to point out that restaurants are much
more expensive in Britain than they are in the US. At a good
restaurant in London the meal may very easily cost £50 a head,
and wine is anything from £25-a-bottle to astronomic. Add tips
and if you are paying for a party of 6 you're out at least £400
or so, maybe a lot more if you have a celebratory glass of
champagne apiece, or if people ask for coffee, brandy etc.
Offering to pay for a whole group is a big deal unless you're
seriously rich (or unless it's a cheap cheerful pizza place),
and people generally don't expect it.
#Post#: 14959--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: October 1, 2018, 9:51 am
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--- Quote from: lakey link ---
>
> I don't think that this is really about "keeping score",
whether an 18th birthday is a major life event, or even what the
two brothers did for their party. I think that this is about the
basic etiquette of hosting a party. If I host a party, birthday
or not, it is my responsibility as the host, to supply the
refreshments. That's what you do when you throw a party. It
doesn't matter whether it is at home or at a restaurant.
> If you can't afford to cover the cost of a restaurant meal for
your guests, then have the party at home. They're not your
guests if you make them pay for their own meal. Even if the
brothers hadn't thrown a barbecue where they provided
everything, what the birthday family is doing is an etiquette
issue.
>
> I also think that the more important issue is the
relationship. Is this etiquette problem more important than
maintaining a good relationship with your family? Personally,
I'd attend the restaurant party and enjoy the company, and move
on. I've had a couple of coworkers and acquaintances who were
serious cheapskates, who took whatever they could get, and
almost never reciprocated. If they pulled something like this, I
wouldn't attend. However, if people are close to you and you
like being with them, you put up with their flaws. This seems
to be the direction OP is taking. As another commenter said, it
may be that SIL or the brother reciprocate in other ways or at
other times. I wouldn't judge this only by the two birthday
parties, or one etiquette breach. I'd look at the whole
relationship. Sometimes it's better to not make to big a deal
out of everything. If you look at what some people deal with
from family members, this is pretty minor.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think you are looking at this on the premise of the brother
and SIL are throwing a party and wanting to act as hosts. As far
as I can tell, the Brother and SIL said "We are going to Italian
restaurant on the 6th to celebrate 18 year olds bday. Are you
guys interested in joining us." To me, that is being nice and
inclusive of other family members, not saying they want the OP
and other brother to be their guests.
We happen to be meeting on the 5th for my sister's bday. She is
coming in from out of town. None of us would expect her to pay
for us nor would we expect one of the other family members in
attendance to host the rest of us.
#Post#: 14974--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: cabbageweevil
Date: October 1, 2018, 11:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Hmmm link ---
>
> OP, does your brother and SIL host you and your other brother
at their homes at other times?
>
--- End Quote ---
As alluded to in my post #21, yes they have done so; they are
far from uniformly "all take and no give".
#Post#: 14976--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: cabbageweevil
Date: October 1, 2018, 11:32 am
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lakey -- it would seem that you swim against the thread's
general tide, in tending to agree to some extent with my brother
Ivan's "take" on this issue; with dissent coming your way, re
same. I've been inclined from the first, to reckon that Ivan
would have few if any on here, in his camp. Essentially, he
doesn't "do" etiquette (which is not to say that he behaves in
company, like a curmudgeon / boor ! -- he has great charm) -- he
thinks me rather silly for spending time on a board which
focuses on the subject. He considers that etiquette has wrong
priorities, in a world where so many more important things are
drastically not-right. His strong egalitarian notions have him
feeling that the "have-mores" overall, should be a lot more
generous to the "have-lesses" -- this mattering more in his
view, than what he perceives as middle-class codes of polite
conduct. With the personal factor of him and Ekaterin basically
not cottoning to each other, also in the mix -- he was not very
happy with the deal as put forward.
I posted my OP out of curiosity as to whether Ivan's sentiments
(shared to a certain extent by me) might -- though from an
essentially anti-etiquette point of view -- nonetheless strike
any chords with BM&M members; or whether everyone would be
solidly behind our brother and sister-in-law. The answer proved
to be "largely the latter, but not 100%". (I'm perfectly happy
with this result -- would be, with any result, even a unanimous
verdict of "Ivan is a total loon; you too, in so far as you
agree with him" -- it's just been interesting to see what people
think.) By the way, I am not making any mention of this thread
to Ivan !
The meal has duly taken place -- all was, at least outwardly,
harmonious: Ivan and I gave Elena her joint present, and we paid
up for our suppers, and smiled. I feel pretty sure that before
very long, Ivan will have relegated this episode to the
department of largely-forgotten past storms in teacups -- he
feels strongly about things at the time, but doesn't nurse
grudges. As I type this, the "lovebirds" are still together as
far as I know...
#Post#: 14981--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: lakey
Date: October 1, 2018, 11:56 am
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Aleko and Hmmm, I see what you mean. I took the fact that SIL
invited them to mean that she was hosting. However, that really
depends on her wording. There is a difference between "hosting"
and "meeting up at a restaurant".
By the way, I was fortunate enough to go to London a number of
years ago. It is a lot more expensive, but it was worth it.
Great city.
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