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#Post#: 14670--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: kckgirl
Date: September 27, 2018, 7:32 am
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--- Quote from: lmyrs link ---
>
> So an 18 year old and her boyfriend aren't hosting her uncles
for her birthday party and you're mad??? Because she came to
your birthday party and you (a fully grown adult man several
decades older) didn't bill her for it?
>
> Yeah, you're being ridiculous. If you're that mad about it,
don't go.
>
--- End Quote ---
Actually, it was the sister-in-law who made the plan, not the
kids.
#Post#: 14671--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: wolfie
Date: September 27, 2018, 9:13 am
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--- Quote from: VorFemme link ---
>
> [quote author=gramma dishes link=topic=702.msg14643#msg14643
date=1537996885]
> [quote author=VorFemme link=topic=702.msg14636#msg14636
date=1537993834]
> Go to the restaurant, order an appetizer & possibly dessert,
with the old line about "ate lunch late and we're still stuffed"
- you still came, you still ate with them, but you don't have to
eat the most expensive thing on the menu just because you're
there.
>
> Unless there is no menu that you can select a reasonably
priced appetizer or small meal option from...which might
irritate me more than being invited to join them at my own
expense at a place with a range of price options.
>
--- End Quote ---
Isn't that exactly what is being expected of them?
[/quote]
I'm saying to get an appetizer - not a full meal - some families
might feel slighted if you show up and don't actually order
something and eat it. Even in the case of a family who has the
gathering at House of Meat & invites the vegan cousin....or vice
versa. Or someone who didn't drink but the family *always*
planned on getting drunk at family gatherings - or was otherwise
doing something completely the opposite of what the rest of the
group thought that they should do. The person doing things
differently was told that they were rude. Even if the objective
truth was that everyone else was appearing to be rude to the
person who was doing what they needed to do.
Do go, do order something, do eat, and don't worry about
whether they're happy with what you ordered & ate if you're
happy with what you ordered & ate. Not going would open a whole
different can of worms - if you're there, you can change the
subject every time the suggestion is made that you need to order
more food, different food, or whatever suggestion is made that
you don't want to follow.
I have a bossy relative or two - I've gotten good at politely
not hearing some of their comments or politely changing the
subject.
[/quote]
He didn't say the family was bossy just that he is offended that
he has to pay for himself.
#Post#: 14675--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: DaDancingPsych
Date: September 27, 2018, 9:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think problems can arise when we start trying to even the
score. It will likely never be completely even and it seems like
a rather silly reason to start some family friction over.
Does this brother occasionally hosts BBQ's or similar gatherings
at his house throughout the year (even if not associated with a
birthday or celebration)? Have you ever suggested gathering at a
restaurant (even if not for a celebration) and anticipated that
everyone would pay their share? My guess is that the answers are
probably yes to these. As long as there is not a single person
who is always footing the bill, then I would not let it upset
me.
Now if I am mistaken and you seem to ALWAYS be hosting, then I
would tell you to take a step back and encourage brother to
contribute a bit more. "We would like to get the family together
for dinner on Thursday, could you bring along a side?" "It is
the first day of October, so we would like to celebrate with
tacos at tasty place near by. Would you like to go dutch and
join us?"
#Post#: 14678--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Hmmm
Date: September 27, 2018, 10:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
An 18th bday is a major birthday. I can understand your brother
and his wife wanting to take the girl out for her birthday
rather than hosting a celebration at home. In our family, we
often go dutch when we are doing a celebration at a restaurant.
I would not be miffed at all. I think it is nice that they are
including the two of you in the family celebration.
I do think that your brother and his wife should host the two of
you at their homes at another time to reciprocate your prior
hospitality.
#Post#: 14681--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Luci
Date: September 27, 2018, 11:08 am
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If we kept score, we would never see some of the people we love
most. We would probably go to the party, and are always prepared
to either pay our own bill or host the grandkids. We feel we win
either way.
#Post#: 14712--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Aleko
Date: September 28, 2018, 4:38 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> [quote]So an 18 year old and her boyfriend aren't hosting her
uncles for her birthday party and you're mad??? Because she came
to your birthday party and you (a fully grown adult man several
decades older) didn't bill her for it?
>
> Yeah, you're being ridiculous. If you're that mad about it,
don't go.
--- End Quote ---
Actually, it was the sister-in-law who made the plan, not the
kids.[/quote]
Well, that's what OP 'understands', but it's perfectly possible
that the idea was the birthday girl's own, or that SIL reckoned
that was what the birthday girl would like, but that as SIL was
tasked with actually issuing the invitation, OP jumped to the
conclusion that it was her idea. Also, OP and Ivan evidently
have reservations about SIL already, which may have played into
her getting the blame.
I can totally see that the birthday girl, her BF and her BF's
parents may all have felt that a coming-of-age is a big occasion
that deserves to be marked by a Proper Posh Restaurant Dinner
rather than any festivity they could contrive at home. Lots of
people do feel that way. If so, and BF's parents can't easily
afford a meal for six at the class of establishment they felt
appropriate, I can well imagine that they thought and hoped that
Elena's affectionate uncles-out-law would rather come at their
own expense than just not be invited. But evidently not.
I second Anon4Now's post absolutely. Ivan is showing a nasty
carping bean-counting attitude and should snap out of it
sharpish.
#Post#: 14717--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Aleko
Date: September 28, 2018, 6:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> [quote][quote]Go to the restaurant, order an appetizer &
possibly dessert, with the old line about "ate lunch late and
we're still stuffed" - you still came, you still ate with them,
but you don't have to eat the most expensive thing on the menu
just because you're there.
>
> Unless there is no menu that you can select a reasonably
priced appetizer or small meal option from...which might
irritate me more than being invited to join them at my own
expense at a place with a range of price options.
--- End Quote ---
Isn't that exactly what is being expected of them?[/quote]
I'm saying to get an appetizer - not a full meal - some families
might feel slighted if you show up and don't actually order
something and eat it. Even in the case of a family who has the
gathering at House of Meat & invites the vegan cousin....or vice
versa. Or someone who didn't drink but the family *always*
planned on getting drunk at family gatherings - or was otherwise
doing something completely the opposite of what the rest of the
group thought that they should do. The person doing things
differently was told that they were rude. Even if the objective
truth was that everyone else was appearing to be rude to the
person who was doing what they needed to do.
Do go, do order something, do eat, and don't worry about
whether they're happy with what you ordered & ate if you're
happy with what you ordered & ate. Not going would open a whole
different can of worms - if you're there, you can change the
subject every time the suggestion is made that you need to order
more food, different food, or whatever suggestion is made that
you don't want to follow.[/quote]
I think this whole issue is a red herring. There's no suggestion
that OP and his brother can't afford a full restaurant meal, or
even that they don't like to pay to eat out: for all we know,
they often eat at the most expensive joints in town. The gripe
appears to be purely one of principle - given that they hosted
3rd-brother-&-family to a barbecue for their joint birthdays,
are they ENTITLED to expect 3rd-brother-&-family to pay for them
if they all go to a restaurant to celebrate Elena's
coming-of-age?
#Post#: 14720--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Aleko
Date: September 28, 2018, 8:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> Ivan feels somewhat put-out by this deal: reasoning along the
lines of: " '-weevil' [the OP] and I, gave them on our
respective birthdays, an evening's hospitality, including meals
(made by us) and drink; for which we did not present them with a
bill. Some months later, they are inviting us to take part in a
celebratory meal for the birthday of one of theirs; for our
shares of which they are requiring us to pay.
--- End Quote ---
I think Ivan is simply wrong in equating these two events.
- He and OP decided to celebrate their own birthdays, and
invited their brother, SIL, nephew and niece-out-law to
celebrate with them. Of course they couldn't possibly present
them with a bill for that, even if the celebration had taken
place in a restaurant, because it is always wrong to invite
people to celebrate oneself and require them to pay their costs.
- However, it is legit to invite people to a restaurant to
celebrate a third party and pay for their own dinners (provided
you spell that out on the invitation, of course, so they don't
get a nasty surprise at the end of the evening), and this is
what OP's brother and SIL are doing. I don't think they are in
the wrong at all.
If Ivan and OP feel the hospitality and generosity is always on
their part, and that their brother and SIL are being
consistently inhospitable and stingy not only with money but
with effort and goodwill (important, because people may well
not be able to match your expenditure on food and drink, but
they can still invite and give you a nice time), yes, that's an
issue. But this specific invitation, on its own, is not.
#Post#: 14721--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Irked Purist
Date: September 28, 2018, 8:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
When I have friends over for food, part of the attraction of it
for me is that I get to cook for people. I really enjoy that
aspect and it doesn't feel like I'm doing them a favour.
Presumably they accept anything that could be seen as a
downside, e.g. they don't choose the menu; any additional
expense for me is equalised by Fun.
Supplies never come up anywhere near as expensive as if I'd
paid for them all at a restaurant. Yes, my time is a factor, but
that would go under 'cooking enjoyment'. I'm in control of how
much it costs, and any expense is pre-planned, unlike being
given a sudden unchangeable bill at the end.
And I do cook all the time so I have the auxilliary stuff
anyway, so maybe I avoid some cost by not having to buy every
ingredient. Maybe I'm a tight git. But considered £ for £, I
don't spend anywhere near as much as if I'd paid for everyone's
dinner out.
So I'm seeing the restaurant option as the more extravagant
one.
Avoiding the most possible work for everyone seems to be an
obvious factor. Maybe there's no one in that group who actually
enjoys entertaining and they'd all rather lose a finger than
'reciprocate'? They get to celebrate the way they like best,
especially for an 18th.
If they're to be held to some arcane tit-for-tat then they
should be fully informed of those terms and get to agree to them
before anyone celebrates anything.
Ivan's take is ambiguous to me- did he enjoy it, or was it just
the unfortunate work he had to put in to get the celebration he
wanted? Either way, I'd say he's in an unwarranted mardy. If the
former: he had the kind of fun he wanted and now seems to be
bothered that they're basically doing the same. If the latter:
it's martyrish, and you don't get praise for suffering
magnaminously to pull off a spectacular day's nosh when no one
else demanded it. Determine what cost you're happy to absorb and
don't complain about it.
Possible YMMV: the implication that he (and you?) risks this
clouding his relationship with the others in future. "[...]this
is flagrantly unfair (though he doesn't plan directly to tell
Ekaterin that)." It's difficult to accumulate slights and not
let them, even subconsciously, affect how you interact with the
person responsible for them. And cooling off that relationship
would be sensible and fair if the gripes are that noticeable...
but I can't see how it's good for anyone to keep the same level
of intimacy while becoming increasingly annoyed at someone, yet
never attempting to discuss it with them.
You risk every irritation being magnified by their seeming
obliviousness, but again, it's holding someone to standards they
never agreed to.
#Post#: 14731--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: cabbageweevil
Date: September 28, 2018, 9:15 am
---------------------------------------------------------
OP here -- sorry I've not been back sooner -- "life unexpectedly
got in the way" -- to some extent, continues to do so. For now,
I've quickly skimmed the past day-plus-worth of posts: will
respond in more detail, as soon as time permits.
It seems, actually, that the "young lovers' " whole relationship
has very recently come to be in the balance -- the whole thing
might be about to become moot anyway...
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