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#Post#: 14615--------------------------------------------------
A question of reciprocity
DIR By: cabbageweevil
Date: September 26, 2018, 11:00 am
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Another post involving a restaurant meal with family, and
invitations thereto, though a different situation from that
dealt with in the recent thread starting from the OP by jpcher
-- would be interested in folks' comments.
I'm a UK native and resident -- am aware that there can be quite
deep differences between US etiquette and ours, concerning the
commemorating of birthdays. The celebrations of which I'm about
to tell are, broadly, acceptable and not etiquette-transgressing
according to UK practice: there's just a detail which gives me
pause to wonder about.
The matter involves the closest "family" I now have. I've posted
about them on the "old" board, using names borrowed from Lois
McMaster Bujold's "Vorkosigan" novels: will do same here.
There's myself and my (younger) brother Ivan, who nowadays share
a house; and living a short distance away, a third brother
(between us in age), Miles; his wife Ekaterin; their son Alex;
and Alex's girlfriend Elena. As from quite recently, and "for
the foreseeable future", Elena is actually living in the family
home with the just-mentioned three. A bit of an unusual
arrangement perhaps; but good and sufficient reasons for it --
not necessary to go into here -- are seen; am mentioning it,
only for what bearing it might have on the finances of the
matter (see below).
Elena's eighteenth birthday (nowadays, generally recognised in
these parts as coming-of-age) occurs in a few days' time. In
May and August this year respectively, Ivan and I celebrated our
birthdays (18th-plus-a-substantial-handful-of-decades ;) ), by
inviting to our shared dwelling for a barbecue and drinks and
general birthday-type doings: Miles, Ekaterin, Alex, and Elena;
who all duly came and (we think) enjoyed the events. Ivan and I
paid for these festivities. For Elena's forthcoming birthday,
an evening meal at a local restaurant is planned: the company
being the birthday girl, her boyfriend Alex, his parents
Ekaterin and Miles; and me and Ivan. The invitation was
extended to Ivan and me, on the basis that he and I are to pay
for what we consume at the restaurant: this arrangement, we
understand, essentially conceived and proffered by Ekaterin.
Ivan feels somewhat put-out by this deal: reasoning along the
lines of: " '-weevil' [the OP] and I, gave them on our
respective birthdays, an evening's hospitality, including meals
(made by us) and drink; for which we did not present them with a
bill. Some months later, they are inviting us to take part in a
celebratory meal for the birthday of one of theirs; for our
shares of which they are requiring us to pay. It rather smacks
of them 'taking us for a ride', and winning on all counts:
unlike us, they're saving themselves the labour of producing the
festivities themselves, by going to a restaurant; and in return
for our not charging them for what they consumed at our birthday
'do's' -- we would not even have dreamt of doing so -- they will
nonetheless be charging us for what we consume at Elena's same."
To my rather hot-tempered brother Ivan, this is flagrantly
unfair (though he doesn't plan directly to tell Ekaterin that).
I feel somewhat the same way, but with less vehemence: see it as
less than "cool"; but Ekaterin has her personal oddities, which
include a tendency to be somewhat ungenerous -- not 100% of the
time, but rather frequently. I incline here, toward "we all
have our individual strangenesses -- often not admirable, but (I
hope) not to the point of making us outright horrible people".
I'd be interested in people's reactions -- while it would seem
to be a "given" that pulling this stunt on someone is unlikely
actually to please those on whom it is pulled: could Ekaterin be
reckoned to be technically OK etiquette-wise with requiring Ivan
and me to pay for ourselves, in the circumstances as described;
or is she plain "out of order" in so doing?
#Post#: 14617--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: lowspark
Date: September 26, 2018, 11:33 am
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To summarize, you fully hosted a dinner gathering in your home
and invited a group of four of your family. That same family is
now having a dinner gathering in a restaurant and invited you
but with the caveat that you pay for your own meal.
I deliberately left the "birthday" part out of it to see if that
would make any difference in you and your brother's reaction.
Also, I wonder if Ekaterin ever hosts anything in her home so
that you could point to that as reciprocity.
In any case, yes, it would be much nicer if that family were
fully hosting, but people often do not reciprocate at all, much
less fully host.
I guess you just have to decide whether you want to attend the
event or not, and then just suck it up and pay if you do. And if
it bothers you and your brother enough, if you feel that the
scales are not balancing, don't invite them over anymore.
#Post#: 14618--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: Hanna
Date: September 26, 2018, 11:39 am
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I understand being flummoxed. However, if you are expecting
complete tit-for-tat then you have to wait for the 3rd birthday
invitation from them this fiscal year that comes with a price
tag before you can be certain they are taking advantage. That
is, there are four of them and two of you so they only “owe” you
and Ivan two hosted parties. Of course, it would be silly way
to keep score, so I’d suggest just putting the whole thing out
of your minds and not trying to keep track. Especially since
it’s just an invitation and you are not required to attend. Go
or don’t go because you want to do so.
It may be a financial issue, they want to have a party for Elena
but can not afford to host by paying.
#Post#: 14619--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: RubyCat
Date: September 26, 2018, 12:05 pm
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We've been invited out to restaurants by family to celebrate
birthdays. Usually, whoever is hosting will cover the bill.
Occasionally, they won't. Either way, we love them and enjoy
their company. We've hosted them at our home and the one time
we took them all out, we covered the bill, but that how dh and I
like to do things.
I think I've read that technically, if you pay for your own
meal, you're not obligated to buy a gift because paying for your
own meal is the gift. Has anyone else read that? Was it on the
old board? Either way, I would still bring a gift.
#Post#: 14624--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: lmyrs
Date: September 26, 2018, 1:26 pm
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So an 18 year old and her boyfriend aren't hosting her uncles
for her birthday party and you're mad??? Because she came to
your birthday party and you (a fully grown adult man several
decades older) didn't bill her for it?
Yeah, you're being ridiculous. If you're that mad about it,
don't go.
#Post#: 14636--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: VorFemme
Date: September 26, 2018, 3:30 pm
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Go to the restaurant, order an appetizer & possibly dessert,
with the old line about "ate lunch late and we're still stuffed"
- you still came, you still ate with them, but you don't have to
eat the most expensive thing on the menu just because you're
there.
Unless there is no menu that you can select a reasonably priced
appetizer or small meal option from...which might irritate me
more than being invited to join them at my own expense at a
place with a range of price options.
#Post#: 14643--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: gramma dishes
Date: September 26, 2018, 4:21 pm
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--- Quote from: VorFemme link ---
>
> Go to the restaurant, order an appetizer & possibly dessert,
with the old line about "ate lunch late and we're still stuffed"
- you still came, you still ate with them, but you don't have to
eat the most expensive thing on the menu just because you're
there.
>
> Unless there is no menu that you can select a reasonably
priced appetizer or small meal option from...which might
irritate me more than being invited to join them at my own
expense at a place with a range of price options.
>
--- End Quote ---
Isn't that exactly what is being expected of them?
#Post#: 14652--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: GardenGal
Date: September 26, 2018, 6:39 pm
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If I'm understanding the issue, you and your brother each hosted
your sibling and immediate family for your respective birthdays,
and now you're a little put out because one member of your
sibling's immediate family is having a birthday at a restaurant
and expecting you to pay your own way.
--- Quote ---
> It may be a financial issue, they want to have a party for
Elena but can not afford to host by paying.
--- End Quote ---
I agree - they want a party for Elena but are unwilling to pay
for it (for whatever reason). Assuming you can afford it, and
assuming you want to go, just go and have a nice time. In
families things don't always have to work out exactly evenly.
The exception to what I suggest would be if this non-hosting is
a pattern of Miles' and Ekaterin's hospitality (or lack
thereof). If they never host you and Ivan for anything, then I
can understand you feeling that you're being taken advantage of,
which you are. In that case, I'd just join them for dessert, if
I wanted to, or skip the dinner entirely.
#Post#: 14660--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: guest657
Date: September 26, 2018, 8:34 pm
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Guests who accept an invitation you freely offered are not
"taking you for a ride."
Family members who ask you to meet them for dinner at a
restaurant are not "issuing you a bill."
If you are more concerned about how much the food costs and who
pays than you are interested in spending time with your family,
don't go. If you are more interested in scorekeeping than in
hosting your brother and his household, don't invite them
anymore.
Reciprocation is a mark of healthy relationships. Bean-counting
isn't. Reciprocation means that over the long-term, everybody
invests time, energy, and hospitality into the relationship
according to their circumstances and ability.
If you feel that the relationship is unbalanced or one-sided
over the long term, and that you and Ivan are showing more
interest and putting more effort into keeping things going than
your other brother is, then that's something you should talk to
him about. Possibly he feels you don't understand or appreciate
his situation either, with a family of 4 to look after, while
the 2 of you would appear to have more independence.
But no. It's not Ekaterina's job to manage your brother's
relationship with you or caretake your feelings about him. It's
not her job to keep track of how much you spent on birthday
parties and make sure everything comes out even.
And there's no upside to cultivating indignation over her
supposed shortcomings. If you have a problem with your brother,
talk to your brother and leave his wife out of it.
#Post#: 14665--------------------------------------------------
Re: A question of reciprocity
DIR By: VorFemme
Date: September 26, 2018, 10:02 pm
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--- Quote from: gramma dishes link ---
>
> [quote author=VorFemme link=topic=702.msg14636#msg14636
date=1537993834]
> Go to the restaurant, order an appetizer & possibly dessert,
with the old line about "ate lunch late and we're still stuffed"
- you still came, you still ate with them, but you don't have to
eat the most expensive thing on the menu just because you're
there.
>
> Unless there is no menu that you can select a reasonably
priced appetizer or small meal option from...which might
irritate me more than being invited to join them at my own
expense at a place with a range of price options.
>
--- End Quote ---
Isn't that exactly what is being expected of them?
[/quote]
I'm saying to get an appetizer - not a full meal - some families
might feel slighted if you show up and don't actually order
something and eat it. Even in the case of a family who has the
gathering at House of Meat & invites the vegan cousin....or vice
versa. Or someone who didn't drink but the family *always*
planned on getting drunk at family gatherings - or was otherwise
doing something completely the opposite of what the rest of the
group thought that they should do. The person doing things
differently was told that they were rude. Even if the objective
truth was that everyone else was appearing to be rude to the
person who was doing what they needed to do.
Do go, do order something, do eat, and don't worry about
whether they're happy with what you ordered & ate if you're
happy with what you ordered & ate. Not going would open a whole
different can of worms - if you're there, you can change the
subject every time the suggestion is made that you need to order
more food, different food, or whatever suggestion is made that
you don't want to follow.
I have a bossy relative or two - I've gotten good at politely
not hearing some of their comments or politely changing the
subject.
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